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I love this initiative in principle, but the instructions left a rather sour taste in my mouth. Create a Firebase app, download and install Node and run some arcane cli commands? For what? To upload a 10-byte HTML file somewhere?

Please, do yourself and us a favour and sign up for a free account on https://neocities.org, and make a quirky website by hand for all of us to enjoy.

I half want to write a post like this but with dead-simple instructions, like "Open Notepad, write <html><body>Hello!</body></html>" inside and upload it to Neocities. Congratulations, you now have a website!"

A good addition would be a nice CSS stylesheet (https://newcss.net/ looks good, linked by sdan in his comment here) to get the site looking nice and mobile-friendly. That's pretty much all you need to make a simple website.



https://glitch.com is also excellent. I’ve been using it to teach a website development workshop to 10-15 year olds and it’s the most intuitive interface I’ve found so far for those with no prior experience with HTML/CSS/JS.


Not affiliated but I think Netlify offers a similar level of initial effort but with more room for later growth.


Yeah, they let you drag and drop a zip file to create a site, but is geared more towards companies/professionals. Neocities is more geared towards a community of independent creators, though, so I'd rather support/promote them for indie stuff.


That's a cool initiative. The HN in me wants to critique it a bit. Why no markdown or WYSIWYG editor? Is it because that would turn it into wordpress?

I feel like there's a place for a service that can,

* Host static content like netlify/neocities on a CDN

* Allow you to register a domain

* Choose a template and enter content with basic markup

This should be able to be done in < 5 minutes for a non-tech user. You'd think registrars would be incentivized to build such a service.

edit: ~~markup~~ markdown/WYSIWYG


WYSIWYG editors are universally bad, and so are Markdown ones. The benefit of Markdown is that you just write it in a text editor. You don't need syntax highlighting to use it effectively. Take reddit, as an example, which got millions of people to write perfect Markdown as intuitively as writing English.


I like entering markdown in text editors, it gives me the freedom to format without fighting the editor. A preview panel helps, and yeah reddit demonstrates that people can learn it.


When you say WYSIWYG editors are universally bad, do you mean the idea of it is just bad, or the implementations we've had so far are bad?


If every single implementation we've had so far after all these years is bad, probably the idea itself is too.


It really depends on the editor. Some editors give you raw access to the underlying code and apply styles to it as you type, kind of like syntax highlighting. Some actually try to be rich text editors with a (usually restricted) Markdown input. You can guess which ones make me want to flip a table. (Hint: Slack, fix your editor!)


If you think Slack is bad, try https://github.community/.


> You ranked up to Ground Controller Lvl 1

I hate those undisableable social media accomplishments that come up as notifications, is Github.community based on Discourse or did it just copy their bad ideas?

edit: wow you can disable them in this one, amazing. I still hate it.


i think slack now allows you to disable the visual editor in settings - you can still format with markdown but the formatting isn't rendered until you send.


Yeah but it's half-arsed; specifically, doesn't do [links](...).


that sounds so aggravating. i haven't used slack in years but it sounds like its functionality has taken nothing but steps backwards since then.

but i'm sure they've added cool new react emojis, so i guess they've been pretty busy with that.


I had more or less the same idea, but perhaps with the markdown syntax extended (I understand this is a touchy topic since there are various markdown parsers that don't all work the same) to allow for simple generation of form controls and navigation bars/layouts.

E.g for navigation sidebar:

* [Home](/home)

* [Blog](/blog)

etc

For form controls:

[ ] I'd like to receive marketing emails.

( ) Female

It'd be even better if it can support basic CRUD/BREAD operations. Basic CRUD webapp with just markdown, imagine that.


I think there are several sites that offer such functionality. Squarespace and Wix immediately come to mind due to all of their advertising. There was some other company I used a while back for a small website for an engineering team, but the name escapes me. These sites are perfect for small business and organizations that just need some web presence without having to think through any of the technical side.


Squarespace and Wix both have a monthly fee.

It should be possible to do something like neocities/Gitlab/Netlify with a one-time fee to cover the domain.


Shameless plug, this is what we are offering on https://appdrag.com WYSIWYG editor + Code editor + templates + domains + CLI + much more :)


You mean a WYSIWYG editor? Yeah, they want to encourage individuality, though I guess an HTML editor wouldn't be out of the question (I think kyledrake just hasn't found one he liked).


A “non-tech” user won’t be doing any markup.


I'll second Netlify. Totally fantastic service; I've played with a lot of "github to deployed app" services, and I was still blown away with how straightforward it was to get a NextJS static site on there, auto-deploying, on a custom domain, with site analytics built-in, no code required.


Neocities was refreshing. I really miss simple fan websites like https://distantskies.neocities.org/


I find myself torn on the specific instructions. It's certainly a lot more arcane than my early sites, but that was mostly because there was a whole lot of boilerplate handled by the host (Enter these details into your FTP program, put your files into public_html, start with index.html).

I didn't have any idea what Apache was, how files were served, or really anything about internet infrastructure. And that's fine, certainly good for a kid or to whip up a quick business site, but it doesn't satisfy the hacker in me today. There's too much magic going on behind the scenes for me to feel much ownership of it.

I suppose it sort of depends who you're aiming it at. TFA didn't feel to me like it was trying to approach novices (after all, it's talking about leaving frameworks and libraries behind, novices aren't much using frameworks). Your instructions are good for an easy introduction for people with no web development experience, to recreate that sense of ease, but I think it's a different thing from what the article is going for. Even a simple site requires a fair bit under the hood, because serving files isn't all that simple unless you just hide it away from the end-user.


I don't know, I mostly agree with you, but I disagree that a simple site requires that much. Just drop the files in a folder in some web server and you're done.


Authoritative voice, the creator of Imgz.org (huge fan).


Hahaha, thank you! Nobody uses that but I love it.


Don't call me nobody!


No, I'm not saying you're nobody, I'm saying nobody is our star user.


wonderful wording.


I do agree that beyond the site being tiny, an important part of taking control back is to question the hosting part. The "traditional" web is, unfortunately, not fit for minimum hosting without either shelling out some money or depending on a third-party (however good it is). It is high time decentralized web alternatives gain adoption.

How to host your tiny website with beaker (https://beakerbrowser.com/)

1. Open Beaker 2. If you don't have any content, select "New Hyperdrive" from the burger menu, enter your site name, and start editing content with the integrated editor 3. If you already have a folder with content, select "New Hyperdrive from folder" 4. You have a website ! Update it locally and changes will be propagated. Your site address is the hyperlink in the URL bar !

There shouldn't need to be more steps and, more importantly, dependencies on external processes/companies/organization to say what you want to say and spread it.


You do need to keep your computer always[0] on, though. I don't mind depending on external companies, I mind depending on external companies that I can't pay to ensure their loyalty to me.

[0] For varying values of "always".


There are levels to this:

- Beaker, like any decentralized web thingy, allows visitors to re-share content if they wish to do so. Integrity is provided through the crypto bits - There is of course the possibility to ask a third-party such as Hashbase (https://hashbase.io/) to host content for you. The difference with WWW hosting is that you don't depend on them to serve content at all times, only when you or your visitors can't; you aren't as dependent

Beyond self-hosting, the major differentiator is that the "web" goes further than just interlinking, it also contains safe distribution. Beaker does even more: foreign content is typically accessed through "mounting" other sites, just like you'd mount with FUSE, so an application doesn't really care where the content comes from. It's all files in the same virtual filesystem.


It can be cheaper to host own (desktop-grade) hardware instead of paying someone to host a stupid single website. The calculation is easy, especially if you only take into account electricity and not hardware purchase costs:

Monthly costs per watt are around 0,3EUR/kWh * 24h/d * 30d/m/1000 = 0,2EUR. That's roughly the price tag for keeping a raspberry pi on 24/7 (yes, it's below 0,2EUR/month). For an average desktop/laptop, which will consume way less then 30W in idle, it's 6 EUR/month. The price of an average hosting offer.


Agree.. I ran a home-hosted web site with regular traffic on a Raspberry Pi 2B for a couple of years before upgrading it to a Pi 3. If you get power issues you can always switch to a battery power bank for a while (assuming your router doesn't go down at the same time).


I don't pay my host for electricity, I pay them for staying up.


My computer has been on (barring upgrades and software update reboots) since I built it and put it on the desk. Which has been what 3 years?


If there's one universal thing I've learned, it's that we generalize poorly.


If it’s really a tiny website could it be hosted on a Raspberry Pi that you kept always on?


Yeah I also was a bit thrown by the tiny website morphing into installing firebase


Agreed.

Or just commit directly to Github, enable pages, job done :)


Indeed, I hear node and have to think of 'gordian'. No idea why.


Agreed, you'll lose access to all that server-side stuff after not too long. Just do something dead simple: single page of vanilla html/css. You'll have to move it at some point, the hosting server will need updating or shut down, and a single file is way easier to move around.


I embed images in my web pages using base64 blacks so there's no need to worry about having to move images around.


I do exactly what you recommend.

My website, https://cyrialize.dev/, is hosted on Neocities. I used jekyll to create it and I use water.css which I found on CSS Bed (https://www.cssbed.com/). The Neocities gem is VERY useful.

My process is super simple, it's basically:

- Make changes

- Commit & Push

- jekyll build

- neocities push _site/


I agree with you so much, I even removed the push step and have Gitlab CI do it for me:

https://gitlab.com/stavros/neocities-gitlab-ci-demo


Nice! You can actually get even a bit simpler with it. I am working on contributing a template for Neocities to GitLab that does not require even a subscription account: https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab/-/merge_requests/32640

I'm using it to deploy my own site (which happens to be subscription, but that isn't required): https://metaluna.io/


Oh that would be fantastic! Where will this template show up? I didn't know Gitlab had CI templates.

How do you upload files without WebDAV? As far as I know, there's no API.

BTW I'm not sure if it still exists, but they had a lifetime supporter account, where you can get a lifetime subscription for $100 in Bitcoin. I got it to support the effort, though I don't really use it, but a bunch of Terabytes of bandwidth and 50 GB of hosting space won't go to waste.


Once merged and in a release, it will show up on the new project page, after selecting "create from template": https://gitlab.com/projects/new

This uses their official CLI RubyGem along with the token you can get through the web interface.


In case you need some more documentation around these templates, here is our relevant docs page: https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/ci/yaml/#workflowrules-templates , sharing as a community advocate at GitLab.


Not those kinds of templates :)


Well that's fantastic, great job. Will it be uploading a specific directory, like in mine? That would be nice since most people keep other stuff in the repo.


Yes, it will upload the public folder only. You can see the details of how it works at https://gitlab.com/pages/neocities (I realize now this would have been a better link to share than the other one).


Oh, haha, yes, that's much better. Great work, thank you!


Holy cow, I never thought about doing that. I think there's a similar thing in Github, I'll definitely check it out.


Yeah, that whole Firebase thing was not necessary. After creating the public folder, dragging and dropping it onto Netlify would've instantly given you a public website. No commands necessary. I use Netlify for everything, even hosting a static blog generated in Hugo. All free, only thing I pay for is my domain.


oh, wow, just read that complicated cli/firebase stuff.

yeah, even easier (or maybe more minimalistic) would be:

goto 192.168.0.1 (or .1.1) and figure out how to port forward '80' to your machine.

install apache

goto a dynamic dns service, get some sub-subdomain, and setup a curl script to set it to your IP.

put an html file in your apache server.

voila, you have your own website*

*if your ISP allows traffic on port 80


It's funny that you think all that stuff is easier.


I think for non-techie users these things are equivalently difficult.

For me, I hate installing stuff, last time I installed Apache must have been before 2004, and I would like to not have to go back.


this is actually how I have my personal website. fairly easy in my opinion.




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