Brexit was really all about EU migration. The economic & democratic argument was really just a pretext. I believe everyone knew this perhaps with few exceptions. Britons felt that citizens from poor EU countries shouldn't have equal rights.
As a European living in UK that's the saddest thing, that feeling of 52% of the British people saying "we don't like you coming here for our jobs" but then you have people that have voted for Brexit to, and I quote, "keep the pakis out", so I bet the Brexit vote was less about not liking foreigners but just putting all your anger at the system into the Brexit vote, resulting in shooting yourself in the foot big time.
It's the same kind of frustration that drove the Maga movement in the United States, a wish to go back to days past and some convenient scapegoats. But denying reality usually doesn't work, the past won't come back and shooting yourself in the foot simply hurts.
But it sucks for all those people that worked so hard to lift the UK out of the mess they were in in the 80's, going down is usually a lot faster than going up.
> But denying reality usually doesn't work, the past won't come back and shooting yourself in the foot simply hurts.
When you look at it in that context you may be correct, but I think that’s also strawmanning to a degree. It was common to hear people attack the movement as being just a bunch of people who wanted things “exactly like the 50s” but that’s not really true.
Furthermore when you look at the data, under Trump illegal immigration was at an all time low, and Americans’ personal satisfaction with their lives were at an all time high [0], among other metrics that showed that despite constant negative media portrayals, the “MAGA policies” were actually working and making Americans lives better.
> the “MAGA policies” were actually working and making Americans lives better
This is not a position that has a lot - if any - of support.
The MAGA policies (tradewars, build the wall and so on) as far as I can see materially degraded the lives of Americans. It was for the most part bluff and bluster and if anything it caused the outflow of people that had illegally immigrated to the United States to halt because those that were in the process of doing so perceived that even if it didn't improve things in the United States it would almost certainly make things worse in the countries that those immigrants were originally from.
The way to stop immigration is to raise the standard of life in the countries that people come from, not to build walls and to enact all kinds of idiotic measures to make it harder for other countries to import their goods. That just works towards the opposite. But Maga and logic never went hand in hand anyway.
OK, yet they went lower-yet under Trump, including by other metrics (border apprehensions), and now under the opposite non-MAGA policies, they are at their highest levels in decades.
Democrats used to take a harder stance on immigration until Trump came around, in fact Schumer et. al. had videos passionately stumping for more money for border walls and fencing in the 00's.
No it really was about immigration. A lot of people, and that includes British Black and Asian people,ironically, didnt like the feeling that they were being swamped by people who spoke a different langauge, that were crowding their schools and health service. I knew a lot of people at all different levels of British society that voted to leave because of this, form all races and economic classes.
I voted to leave because I found the EU undemocratic, inflexible and overegulated, I also didnt like the strong strain of xenophobia and racism present in continental European politics that could infect the UK through EU legislation. But I also knew that was the reason Leave won the vote in the UK.
> A lot of people, and that includes British Black and Asian people,ironically, didnt like the feeling that they were being swamped by people who spoke a different langauge, that were crowding their schools and health service
The English school system is an undefinable classist mess, where you either spend a fortune in housing or in school fees or you surrender to your child being practically illiterate. The NHS is a burning barrel of crap, compared to its continental homologues. They are sources of complaints among expats and of morbid curiosity for those living in the continent (I went to the GP with a broken arm, and all they gave me was paracetamol, do you know an Italian doctor in the UK? - random Italian on the NHS). Nobody moves to the UK for its public services and nobody swamps anything.
Anybody suggesting that Germans or Frenchmen or Spaniards are flooding the UK (read London zone 1 to 3, for the rest is closer to Ukraine than to Germany) is either ignorant or racist or a combination of the two.
To be honest, I’m kind of fed up with the normalisation of hate against Europeans and, in particular, Eastern Europeans. As if the Britons were some kind of a master race with a God-given prerogative re: ranking nationalities or races.
If you have a theory re: why Poles are inferior to Brits, you don’t have to share it with me.
I dont have any particular axe to grind against foreigners, and there is no normalisation of hate against any particular group in the UK. They have some of the strictest anti discrimination laws in Europe. Im sure if you were say gay or black and living in say Poland or Romania you'd have a much harder time and be discriminated far more against than if you lived in the UK, so the idea that the British alone think they're better than others is wrong isnt it. The racism, homophobia, anti-semitism and islamophobia in Eastern Europe is far worse that the UK, so what does that say about them?
>> The racism, homophobia, anti-semitism and islamophobia in Eastern Europe is far worse that the UK, so what does that say about them?
I think it says that socially(i.e discrimination wise)EE is still a developing region while the UK is degrading. UK was seen as a model for many european countries. I don't think it'a the case anymore and I don't think the anti-immigration story is over in the UK.
That being said I can't wait for the UK to lecture Eastern European countries on immigration...imagine that hypocrisy
> It wasnt Germans, French or Spanish though was it, it was Romanians, Polish and Bulgarians.
as if this weren’t the result of normalisation of hate against Eastern Europeans. Not that I care much, I’m not Eastern European, but I’d try not to contradict myself in the space of one and a half sentence.
> so what does that say about them?
That there isn’t any “them”. Your neighbour is your neighbour and doesn’t bear the sins of his fellow countrymen.
> like the feeling that they were being swamped by people who spoke a different langauge, that were crowding their schools and health service
That's the most ignorant of excuses. Do these people think we come to UK to get benefits and because we're weak and sick? People immigrate when they're young and healthy and of working age. They don't crowd the health service and are net positive taxpayers and contributors to the economy.
But of course the average "immigrants are stealing our jobs" voter isn't capable of deep concepts like this. Sorry, but as a son of immigrants and an immigrant myself I have no patience for ignorance and small-mindedness.
Now we've left the EU, BoJo offered temporary visas to drive lorries during the fuel crisis this summer and there's no one to pick the potatoes and parsnips out of the British fields. Where the queue of Brits to replace the Eastern European immigrant farmers that have gotten the boot thanks to Brexit?
We all know why no one's doing those jobs, its because they were low paid. Shouldnt farmers have been paying more or was low paid labour from Eastern Europe a good thing?
Fyi, that's not really true. Areas with actual immigrants were the least likely to vote out. Areas with basically no immigration on the other hand voted out.
I don't know. In my experience the people hating foreigners are those that live as far away from immigrants as possible. If you live in the big city and see that Europeans, Chinese and Arabs eat, shit and look exactly like you, you'll tend to moderate any tribalistic views.
The vast majority of EU haters has never crossed the Channel nor met any European in their whole life. That's how racism work.
There’s also the “misery loves company” aspect that I think drives a lot of city dwellers.
Furthermore it’s not just the non-immigrants who can vote in cities. The immigrants will tend to vote for the more liberal policies. So of course high-immigration areas will have more pro-immigration voting.
Finally there’s the factor that, if your city is already inundated with immigrants, then it’s not like they’re going to be going anywhere even if anti immigration policies are put in place, so even if people were against them, they may just be resigned to the fact that they’re there to stay. There’s nothing to protect against, they’re already there.
Those living outside of big cities see all the crime and problems that go along with living in a city and want nothing to do with it. You can call this behavior any name you want, but I think it just comes down to wanting to live a nice peaceful life with your family and not having to deal with all that city BS.
I see this in Texas: most of the Texans I know (not recent imports) are "meh" about immigration; and, illegal immigration? Eyeroll! My relatives in the Midwest where there's hardly any immigrants? - they're the ones complaining of an immigration apocalypse.
Scapegoats are only easy when you don't have to look them in the eyes. I worked with enough ... poorly documented ... guys in the 1990s. They all made good with the Feds: made enough to lawyer up, strike a deal, pay some fines, sometimes go back 'home' for a few years, then go Green Card & become citizens.
Anecdotal but... I've heard so many pensioners complain about Polish people taking their jobs. But they're pensioners and haven't worked in years. Meanwhile people I know in construction where a lot of migrants actually work don't care.
I think this whole thing was fueled by a sort of boredom mixed with fear of changes that have already happened. In all my discussions with brexiteers they claim it's about X but when you ask or point out the lack of logic suddenly it's about Y. Then Z. It's like how you can't really explain why your favourite colour is your favourite colour. Only with massive consequences for other people.
I think the truth is people did it for no actual reason and then attached reasons to make it sound less crazy after the fact.
I had a wierd conversation that backs this up, talking to a 70 to 80yo guy, he seemed extremely fit and mental young, but as we got talking about the brexit vote he suddenly got angry/ passionate!! about how the polish are coming in and talking all the jobs, he went on and on for what seemed like ages (about 2 to 3 minutes)
I asked him in a calm but intrigued way to explain more, has he lost his job or has is family been affected? He suddenly changed his demeanor from angry to very calm and passive then said there's been no immigrants to his village and he's retired, but that they might come though - I thought wtf
I asked him does he read the daily express? he shrugged like, whats that got to do with anything and he said yes, the conversation moved on
That's actually not a contradiction but a well-known phenomenon. In any given country, the area with the least immigration is often times the most vocally xenophobic.
> Britons felt that citizens from poor EU countries shouldn't have equal rights.
Let's see how that line holds up a while from now. The UK had substantial benefits from being in the EU, without those the wealth disparity could become significant in a very short time.
