I've been so happy to see what Framework has been doing lately, and really want to support them, but I already have a desktop as my primary computer and two Thinkpads that are already set up nicely, but that I rarely use. I moved from 15" laptops to 14" when Lenovo added the numpad on the larger variant, and 14" is about as small as I want to go.
I kind of want to buy a framework though, just to support them? But I have no use for another laptop, let alone a small 12" one! Should I get one anyway because, what the hell, why not? Should I wait and then jump on one if/when they release a larger model?
Anybody else have similar feelings?
Edit to add:
I also have one of the last Thinkpad models that support S3 sleep (T480 -- within a model or two, I think?), which is currently super critical for Linux... I need to be able to close the lid and come back after a week.
It's easy to blame the manufacturers for this, but the consistent answer seems to be "Intel's Tiger Lake platform does not support S3 sleep," and all of the system builders base their work on what Intel's reference platform does. So short of going to extreme effort to hack it together themselves (something that is likely not their specialty), reasonable sleep behavior is not going to be an option unless Intel brings S3 back, or does work to improve the S0ix states.
I absolutely do not want to support the no-more-S3 clusterfuck right now.
FWIW I don't think you should buy a laptop from them just to support them.
Just adding to e-waste down the line, and I'm sure they are selling enough units.
In the future when you do actually need/want a new laptop of course it would be great to support them then. And advocate for them when a friend asks about what laptop to buy.
Completely agree about e-waste, and as a result, I try to take good care of my laptops and use them for as long as I can (I used my previous one for about a decade, and it's still perfectly usable plugged in / for light tasks).
I try to make sure to limit the max charge percentage to 80 on all devices I use. Voltage in many lithium cells increase with heat, so if you're already at full charge you might overvolt you battery. This is why new devices are shipped with 66% charge, because the same applies to cold and undervolting, both ruin the cells.
Apple has been able to do "clever" things while asleep, like waking up the wifi chipset periodically to check for email / messages / notifications / updates, so that when you wake up, everything magically feels ready to go instead of feeling like you just woke up from 1984 and have reams of crap to download.
But this only works well because Apple does their own firmware for most of the machine, and seems to do a reasonably good job, despite a few issues. They're careful about only doing things that aren't going to obliterate the battery in a way that would be surprising.
Microsoft is jealous of this functionality and knows they want something like that for Windows. They also know they need to cater to the lowest common denominator with system builders, so they asked Intel to put this kind of capability into their platforms, and to explicitly disable the old modes, so that system builders wouldn't be able to drag their feet. The result is that they've all switched, but the outcomes are generally poor and high variance. Sometimes they're passably okay within Windows, but not always. It'll probably get better, but for now things are crap, especially on Linux.
I believe it's configurable in firmware, as my ThinkPad e14 gen 2 has a BIOS option to set the sleep state behaviour. The options are labelled "Windows" and "Linux".
Why is this hard? Like I know it's all hard. But is it just new? or is it not documented at all, or some structural issue with how distros expect states to work?
Have they? As far as I'm aware, sleep states are "supported" in hardware well enough, but doesn't prevent software/settings from not using them correctly.
Not that I blame them, there are many different sleep states from core/package level [0] that map onto system/platform level sleep states [1]. Fucking confusing, and I'm sure something is waking it up. Have you checked Windows Task Scheduler? My college laptop had a Norton Antivirus scan wakeup at 5am every day and would be re-enabled every Windows Update, similar pain to you
Hopefully they are able to expand their lineup to include a 15" model. I tried to work on a 14" MacBook Pro and ended up returning it because it felt too small. Though I probably still wouldn't exchange my 16" M1 MBP for a 15" Framework laptop unless Framework manages to even come close to competing with M1's power efficiency. That really depends on a chip designer making something competitive though. Not much Framework can do other than find ways to improve Linux's power management.
Adding my vote: I'll definitely jump on a Framework 14+" here. My eyes cannot work well w/a 13" without glasses. If I had better near vision (will be all over the lens-softening eye drops) it would be a different story.
I'd like to support their cause, but like you, I have way too many machines that already work well enough, that I can't justify another purchase unless it would offer a substantial improvement over my current setup (old ThinkPads). Plus I really can't function without a Trackpoint ;)
So I'm holding out a generation or two to reconsider. I hope they improve.
> From reports I've read the Framework laptop has poor build quality.
I'm gonna be really honest here and say that people have a very distorted subjective idea of what a 'sturdy laptop' is like. A lot of marketing money has been spent to make people think the only way to have a strong object is for it to be made of a rigid metal or glass material, so people go "oh my god the lid can FLEX this thing will break if I drop it!" but that's not at all how things work.
The truth is you can't really just guess at whether a thing will survive falling or whatever by looking at or touching it. The only thing that tells you anything really is actual experience and/or testing.
(personally, I think my framework laptop feels plenty sturdy for all the subjective anecdata that's worth, it's just not designed in a way that's trying to scream at you "you can run it over with a truck and it will work perfectly")
I would categorize the laptop not turning on for 2 weeks, poor speakers, fan noise, mushy/creaking keys, and weak hinge all to be part of build quality. And yes, software issues are also a problem.
We can argue about how subjective all of those points are, and if a single report has any merit on its own, but it was enough to disuade me from making the purchase.
If I could test the laptop locally before buying it, I would do that. Otherwise I don't want to risk it on a first gen product, since I _can_ wait for gen 2 and 3.
> Build quality is clearly a step down from my old Thinkpad X1 Yoga. The hinge doesn't feel as strong, some keys are mushy/creaking and I'm skeptical my Framework will survive as many falls as my old laptop.
That is not the same as saying the build quality is poor though: it's clearly a comparative statement. "The Tesla Model S is cheaper than the Model X" does not imply "The Model S is cheap".
Replacing "Model S" in the sentence with a beat-up '97 Honda civic and it may be true, but there is not enough evidence contained in the sentence to support an absolute statement.
Our individual thresholds for quality differ, that's for sure, because my definition is "Was the object built well, considering it's constraints?" As an example,if something is made of plastic (or "polycarbonate"[1]), I expect it to flex to a degree, and it can still be very well made (e.g. old school Nokia phones had incredible build quality and industrial design)
1. I hate that plastic had to be re-branded in this manner because a small-but-vocal contingent decided it "feels cheap" on phones, or somehow lowers build-quality. This resulted in glass-backed phones which ironically had to be kept in plastic cases to take advantage of plastic's superior elasticity.
The correct quote regarding the hinge is, "the hinge doesn't feel as strong". "as strong" doesn't mean it isn't strong. It means the original commenter doesn't think it is as strong as another hinge not that it isn't strong. Since there is no data regarding actual hinge performance this is a subjective and not an objective evaluation. Keyboard feel is also very subjective, so one person saying the keyboard is "mushy and creaky" holds no real value either.
I've had my laptop for a while now and haven't noticed any build quality issues. It definitely feels nice and light but it seems sturdy enough. I'm not in the habit of dropping my laptop on the ground but I do chuck it on to the bed from time and to time and it doesn't seem any worse for wear.
I came across similar anecdotes of build quality and turned my nose. I found myself wishing I could hold a Framework laptop twist it like I was ringing out a wet rag. Surely this is a good test of build quality, I thought to myself. But in a moment of clarity, I realized this and other pseudo signals of build quality that Youtube reviewers and other armchair experts were attempting to use to draw comparison (to a unibody macbook pro) were either irrelevant or pedantic. Why is a unibody the pinnacle of build quality? Shouldn't longevity be?
I checked my Apple elitism at the door and I put my name down for a Framework in September and got it in October. Happy ever since. It's a great little laptop and would highly recommend others.
Some of these issues could be subjective, and I shouldn't decide based on that single report alone, but it was enough reason to reconsider the purchase, especially since, like I said, I really don't need a new machine.
I would say all that is subjective regarding what they specified as "build quality". I'll add my own take to it - I got mine early last month and haven't noticed any of those. That said, I do think the battery is the weak spot, but I think part of that is on the OS side (I'm running Pop!OS).
Had mine since July, batch 1. No build quality issues at all from my perspective...one of my favorite keyboards to type on. Battery is not so good, though.
That’s not my personal experience at all. Yes, my $4000 14” MaxBook Pro has objectively better build quality, but I think the Framework is at least on-par with the $2000 XPS 13 I bought first (and later returned for the Framework).
Can’t comment on the trackpoint, which is something I’ve never personally liked, but if that’s a deal breaker, you’ll probably have to have a Thinkpad. But I’ve been very pleased with the build quality of my Framework.
Can anyone recommend a laptop that gets great battery life on Linux and has a good keyboard?
I've been thinking about selling my current beefy laptop (razer blade 15) since I end up doing all my MCAD/ECAD work on my desktop anyway, and moving back to Manjaro on my laptop which only really gets used for software/firmware anyway.
But, I read so many horror stories about linux firmware glitchyness and poor battery life that I gave up on the idea. If I can just by a used thinkpad from a few generations ago that might be perfect.
My ThinkPad x270 runs perfectly on Linux out of the box (including Bluetooth, webcam, etc.), and with the larger 9-cell battery (+ the smaller internal battery it comes with) it ran almost 20 hours for normal coding usage when new (less with other usage, and of course it's gone down a bit since, but can still work a full day on it).
It should be said I run a pretty minimal system (dwm, st, Vim, stuff like that) and usually throttle the system to "powersave", mostly because the fans will never spin up with it. It's a bit slower, but still plenty fast enough for me.
I get decent but not amazing battery life on my XPS 15, running Pop_OS. About 5-6 hours of actual use time. No major firmware issues but it is using Nvidia.
XPS 15 laptops appear to have an unresolved mouse lag issue that is noticeable under linux (but seems to happen in Windows too). Seems to not happen with external mice. Annoying but not a big deal. There is an open issue for it but no patch yet.
had one. It died. Battery swelled up, I replaced it. It died forever because, I think. I closed the lid and put it in my bag. Doing exactly that is what makes a laptop a laptop. It was a couple of months out of warranty and you can't even contact Dell to say "Is this your quality? Is this acceptable to you that your laptop is this bad?" You need to plug in serial numbers on their website and they just tell you to get lost. Can't email them. Can't do anything.
So yes. The Dell. I do NOT recommend. They are garbage quality devices and their support is utterly terrible. Wildly overpriced for what you actually get.
I've had great battery life and overall experience with my System76 Lemur Pro. However, I have only used their PopOS and don't know if Manjaro would fare differently.
I'm waiting for something with beefier internals, or an AMD variant, or both. That being said, they'd have to redesign the power delivery system and thermals, so maybe it would no longer be as modular? Anyone with the knowledge care to weigh in?
there wouldn't be any new parts except the mainboard/cpu/heatsink. It's unlikely for someone to want to replace only one of those*. I don't see a loss for customizability or repairability
* very few people can solder a cpu and I've never heard of a heatsink needing replacement
Funny you say that, my current laptop has a really low wattage chip and as a result, a very small heatsink. As I was removing the plasticy thermal dividers that insulate the rest of the board from the heat of the heatsink so I could lap the contact area, I bent the heat-pipe and pinched it, since it was so thin and fragile.
That being said, that's a bummer. Would be nice to get a higher end compute option or one with a dGPU.
Similar feelings, yes. I don't mind the size at all. It's just that I've got a sweet thinkpad x13 already. My next laptop though, surely a framework (if they are still around)
You can try re-selling your existing laptops in the local market. Plently of buy-sell communities on forums or groups. Sure, you won't get your buy price but you will get a decent amount back.
I agree with not adding unnecessary e-waste to the current crisis. But perhaps you have someone in your life that could really use a laptop? You could get them a gift if they're interested in the laptop
You can go for the DIY version without Windows installed, but you have to assemble it yourself and there isn't a supported version of Linux it seems. Giving you the option of preassembled but with no OS installed would seem to be the logical next step before maybe offering a supported Linux version down the line if it's commercially viable.
> I wouldn’t buy a Framework right now because they come bundled with Windows and not Linux.
That only applies to the prebuild laptop. The DIY edition gives you the option to buy the laptop without an operating system. It's fairly easy to assemble the DIY edition yourself and save money by DIY.
I kind of want to buy a framework though, just to support them? But I have no use for another laptop, let alone a small 12" one! Should I get one anyway because, what the hell, why not? Should I wait and then jump on one if/when they release a larger model?
Anybody else have similar feelings?
Edit to add:
I also have one of the last Thinkpad models that support S3 sleep (T480 -- within a model or two, I think?), which is currently super critical for Linux... I need to be able to close the lid and come back after a week.
It's easy to blame the manufacturers for this, but the consistent answer seems to be "Intel's Tiger Lake platform does not support S3 sleep," and all of the system builders base their work on what Intel's reference platform does. So short of going to extreme effort to hack it together themselves (something that is likely not their specialty), reasonable sleep behavior is not going to be an option unless Intel brings S3 back, or does work to improve the S0ix states.
I absolutely do not want to support the no-more-S3 clusterfuck right now.