It's been documented by very angry, frustrated people who feel personally attacked. I don't trust people with all of their own skin in the game to tell the truth. I expect them to say whatever they have to. People have been going after Kiwi Farms for at least 8 years now, relentlessly. Why can't any of these mobs turn all of this documentation into a court order? Kiwi Farms has been sued repeatedly, close to ten times I think. They're being sued right now. Every case but one has been thrown out immediately. That other one took 3 days to also be thrown out.
The problem is, similar with 4chan, 8chan and others, that being an asshole and literally bullying people to suicide is not illegal under US laws. The only thing that will lead to consequences on the Internet even in the US is anything relating to CSAM, drug and weapons trafficking, terrorism and evading US trade sanctions and financial regulations. Everything else, no matter how morally reprehensible or how illegal it is in every other civilized nation, is a free-for-all.
The problem is, trolls always escalate their behavior if left unchecked - the best example is actually 4chan. Eventually the most notorious user base moved over to 8chan/8kun, and then Christchurch happened. Or they hound people so aggressively that they see no other option to escape than killing themselves, because the police can't help when hundreds of peopple call in pizzas, delivery services or the police themselves. Hell even moving away doesn't help, some stalkers doxxed Keffals from the linen pattern of her hotel bed, others have doxxed people based off on reflections in their window.
Ok. I don't think I disagree with anything you wrote. But you seem to just assume that "Kiwi Farms does/did such an such to so and so" is a fitting description of events that, just for example, a court of law would reach. And that hasn't been demonstrated. I'm well aware that your insinuations are considered documented facts among those on that side of the issue. But in the big picture, they're accusations, narratives, interpretations, assumptions, etc. Don't bother trying to persuade me it's fact - I've spent seven years and hundreds of hours closely and critically following many a Kiwi saga. I'm acquainted with volumes of details about how they operate over a long period of time. And I'm also well aware that my interpretation of why they do what they do will never be acceptable to at least 90% of the types of people who visit here, and the rest wouldn't get into that can of worms publicly, not even me. And just for the record, that's not me being crypto-anything. I am 100% NOT on board with the persecution of any half-decent person absolutely regardless of their identity, in the current colloquial use of "identity". But you lot would not accept my definition of "persecuted" either so there we are.
What the hell was I trying to say... Oh. Yeah I really didn't want to get into the moral side, but I had to say a bit. What I really wanted to say here is simply that you will never hear one single word of protest from me if law enforcement ever investigates Lolcow LLC, charges, and convicts. Or any individual user for that matter. The admin himself has made it as clear as anyone can to his users that if they commit crimes he won't hesitate to hand over evidence if he has it. And as I said elsewhere, do not make the mistake of thinking that's some wink, wink, nudge joke to him. The guy is already tied up in litigation constantly and he doesn't enjoy it. I'm just sick and fucking tired of mob justice on the internet and in the media, and I am neither a pragmatist nor a consequentialist so to me the ends don't justify the means unless my own blood family are in the crosshairs. Sort it the fuck out legally, preferably without trashing the US Constitution.
> The guy is already tied up in litigation constantly and he doesn't enjoy it.
Well, no one forces him to run a forum for the world's most vile scumbags. Maybe, just maybe, being embroiled in lawsuits for years is society's moderate way of telling him "hey, what you're doing is widely seen as unacceptable". If it's worth the stress and money for him, okay, but he's not in any position to whine around. He can sleep in a pig sty all he wants, but ffs don't complain when other people say he stinks like a pig.
> so to me the ends don't justify the means unless my own blood family are in the crosshairs. Sort it the fuck out legally, preferably without trashing the US Constitution.
Well, there we have the classic dispute between people from the US and partially the UK on the free-speech absolutist side and the Continental European viewpoint that some sorts of speech and actions need to be banned for a healthy society, given the learnings of the NS dictatorship and the Soviet gulags on just how depraved humans can act upon each other.
Personally, as a German I see way too many parallels between the current USA and the pre-1933 Germany for my liking, in particular the regular bloodshedding and the attempt of the far right to deny marginalized people (especially Jews and LGBT, it's disturbing how history repeats itself) their right to a peaceful existence. And platforms like the xChans, Kiwifarms, but also due to their inaction on moderation Facebook, Twitter and Youtube play a massive role in this.
> Personally, as a German I see way too many parallels between the current USA and the pre-1933 Germany for my liking
I don't have much else to say that's worth arguing about. I just wanted to say that I acknowledge that you have a perspective on it that I can't have, and if I were in your shoes I'm pretty sure I would not ignore my intuition on this. As far as what I would do about it.... That's going to take some number of sleeps to think on.
Oh and Josh doesn't whine. He's kind of the dutiful servant. I think if you read his writing you'd see he actually speaks with a consciousness of the other side's point of view that almost nobody ever does when they're embroiled in this type of war where nobody will cede an inch. But that isn't enough for people. They won't accept anything short of him changing his mind.
So if enough people believe OJ killed his ex-wife, we should shun him from society because it's no longer in "he said they said" territory?
The rule of law and due process are important factors. While you are personally free to refuse your own business to anyone based on any criteria you like, demanding and expecting others to do so based on what is ultimately hearsay is pure entitlement.
It is not too much to expect of a dozens-of-billions-of-dollars worth multinational corporation to conduct an investigation based on that "hearsay" and to react on that investigation.
Operating a global business does not absolve the business from the need to prevent harm caused by it, in fact some form of abuse management has been expected from any good Internet citizen since its inception, e.g. in Usenet [0] or e-mail in general [1].
Or for a real-life equivalent: if I were to stand outside of the home of a person and blaring into a megaphone that she deserve to die... I'd at least get the cops called on me for a noise violation or a harassment charge, and if I were to incite others or coordinate their behavior, I would get a conspiracy charge. Why should Internet trolls enjoy legal protection for the same behavior?
> It is not too much to expect of a dozens-of-billions-of-dollars worth multinational corporation to conduct an investigation based on that "hearsay" and to react on that investigation.
Who is to say that they haven't done this already? It's been almost an entire week - not taking action could be very well be the reaction. Albeit not the one you are hoping to see. They don't owe you or anyone an explanation and anything they state could just be turned around against them by the next angry Twitter mob next week.
> Or for a real-life equivalent: if I were to stand outside of the home of a person and blaring into a megaphone
No. That is not equivalent to what is happening here. It's more like a bunch of people making fun of someone in a backyard, with the subject frequently walking by, taking offense, and then calling for the offender's landlord to break their lease with the occupant for allowing mean things to be said. If someone in real life called the police over this they'd be laughed at and told to walk down a different street next time.
> Why should Internet trolls enjoy legal protection for the same behavior?
They don't. If an internet troll commits a crime then they have no special protection from prosecution. And on the civil side if an internet troll is posting untrue defamatory content then there is also recourse for the victim.
In fact as far as the legal system is concerned, the call by "Keffals" to attempt to intentionally damage the business relationship that kiwifarms has with Cloudflare falls dangerously close to tortious interference [0] in the US and something similar in Canada. The owner of kiwifarms may even have a civil case against them.
> Or for a real-life equivalent: if I were to stand outside of the home of a person and blaring into a megaphone that she deserve to die... I'd at least get the cops called on me for a noise violation or a harassment charge, and if I were to incite others or coordinate their behavior, I would get a conspiracy charge. Why should Internet trolls enjoy legal protection for the same behavior?
They shouldn't, but why would a coffee-shop down the street be held responsible for not serving them? This is the equivalent of what some people are asking of Cloudflare.
I fully support people suing, or demanding the police or whoever is responsible investigate, KF. By most accounts, they are a horrible organization that are attacking and causing harm in the world. But we call the police when someone harasses us, we don't ask strangers to stop doing business with our harasser.
The behavior of Kiwifarms and their users has been documented often and deep enough to say that this is no longer a "he said they said" territory.