Hmm. I think is a poor article because it lacks depth and simply makes a bunch of assertions many of which don't even follow from the premises in the article itself. I might have refrained from saying so explicitly had I thought you were actually interested in exploring the question and were gathering information, but it seemed to me that you've made up your mind and are working backwards from your conclusion.
You haven't really addressed my first point. What's the evidence that libraries serve the poor more than universities? I was trying to point out that we can make all the assertions we want, but none of them might be true, so we need to guided by data not opinions or anecdotes. You seem to have missed this point.
Administration costs, questionable research, credentialing, etc. That huge increase in tuition costs is going somewhere, isn't it?
My understanding is that tuition is rising because of university funding being cut. In fact, some of the first few articles when you google for this are [1, 2, 3] which clearly couple tuition increases with budget cuts. Are you not aware of this?
Are you seriously claiming that university tuition is being increased simply to fund "questionable research" etc.?
This is the unnecessary barrier. Now you have to spend money and time to get a degree just to keep up. If you can't do that, you're worse off.
This is a product of the economic system we live and I fail to see how reducing university funding will solve this problem.
Yes, many great innovators do not have college degrees. They help prove my point.
No, I don't think it proves your point. You said people can't do anything of value without a college degree and the existence of people who have done things of value without a degree disproves your point.
Of course it does. yummyfajitas has covered this already.
yummyfajita's claim, if valid, is a much weaker one than yours.
You're suggesting the only possible way to do this kind of research is through the university system as currently structured. This is an outlandish, unsupported claim, and you denigrate the people who performed this research by claiming they could only have done it within the modern university system.
That's not what I'm claiming. What I said was that given that this happened, that research has already more than paid for itself.
If you want to claim all of this research could have been done in some different setting (which you haven't specified), that might or might not be true depending on what you're proposing.
I'm skeptical though that a system that eschews public funding of research will work better than the current one. I think it's not a coincidence that the US is the pre-eminent leader in high-technology research and also houses some of the best graduate schools in the world.
> What's the evidence that libraries serve the poor more than universities?
I take it you've agreed universities are skewed towards the middle class and higher in terms of direct enrollment (and this is easily verifiable). To counter this, you talked about indirect effects:
> Maybe serving the middle class by producing a highly qualified workforce eventually helps the poor more than just throwing money at libraries.
How can you prove this? I don't think it's possible, but if you can I'm all ears.
> Are you seriously claiming that university tuition is being increased simply to fund "questionable research" etc.?
I'm claiming one of the reasons university tuition is being increased is that we're in an environment where degrees are seen as being necessary, whether or not they are. In other words, degrees are being treated as an inelastic good. Therefore students are willing to pay whatever they can afford. As student loan limits increase, what students can afford to pay increases, so tuition increases as well. If even part of the tuition increases come from this, and your college president is making $1 million/year, I think it's fair to call that waste.
> This is a product of the economic system we live and I fail to see how reducing university funding will solve this problem.
It's a product of the system we live in because we created and subsidized that system. Lowering the subsidy is the first step to solving the problem. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3608680
> You said people can't do anything of value without a college degree
This is completely false. I did not say anything of the kind. In fact, I'm making the exact opposite point, so now I'm wondering if you understood what I was saying at all. I said universities are "fostering an environment where people are expected to have degrees before they can do anything of value".
> yummyfajita's claim, if valid, is a much weaker one than yours.
yummyfajitas directly counters the same claim I was referring to.
> That's not what I'm claiming.
No, that is exactly what you claimed. You said, word-for-word, that it "would've been impossible [for me to publish the article] without all the academic research into computing and networking systems in the last few decades".
> If you want to claim all of this research could have been done in some different setting
Yes, I'm claiming there is more than one way to do research. Your claim, that what was done was the only possible way to do it, is extraordinary to me. And again, that is what you're claiming when you say it "would've been impossible" for me to publish an article on the internet.
You haven't really addressed my first point. What's the evidence that libraries serve the poor more than universities? I was trying to point out that we can make all the assertions we want, but none of them might be true, so we need to guided by data not opinions or anecdotes. You seem to have missed this point.
Administration costs, questionable research, credentialing, etc. That huge increase in tuition costs is going somewhere, isn't it?
My understanding is that tuition is rising because of university funding being cut. In fact, some of the first few articles when you google for this are [1, 2, 3] which clearly couple tuition increases with budget cuts. Are you not aware of this?
Are you seriously claiming that university tuition is being increased simply to fund "questionable research" etc.?
This is the unnecessary barrier. Now you have to spend money and time to get a degree just to keep up. If you can't do that, you're worse off.
This is a product of the economic system we live and I fail to see how reducing university funding will solve this problem.
Yes, many great innovators do not have college degrees. They help prove my point.
No, I don't think it proves your point. You said people can't do anything of value without a college degree and the existence of people who have done things of value without a degree disproves your point.
Of course it does. yummyfajitas has covered this already.
yummyfajita's claim, if valid, is a much weaker one than yours.
You're suggesting the only possible way to do this kind of research is through the university system as currently structured. This is an outlandish, unsupported claim, and you denigrate the people who performed this research by claiming they could only have done it within the modern university system.
That's not what I'm claiming. What I said was that given that this happened, that research has already more than paid for itself.
If you want to claim all of this research could have been done in some different setting (which you haven't specified), that might or might not be true depending on what you're proposing.
I'm skeptical though that a system that eschews public funding of research will work better than the current one. I think it's not a coincidence that the US is the pre-eminent leader in high-technology research and also houses some of the best graduate schools in the world.
[1] http://www.highereducation.org/reports/affordability_supplem... [2] http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2012/feb/01/florida-college-u... [3] http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/29/nyregion/cuny-board-approv...