I live in SF and I think the doom loop narrative is true of downtown. So many job cuts (though I think the AI boom is already gaining traction).
However the neighborhoods are dreamy, as good as ever. The city lost population during the pandemic but it has been gaining and in 2023, it is the fastest growing in the state.
I've been in tech for years here and it is the best job market, most lucrative, and most advanced. It's an opportunity to work here. Just don't live in the tenderloin.
I never got this. I lived in a “good” neighborhood, but still the TL issues (drug addicts, unhoused mentally ill people, dirty sidewalks, needles) still crept in. What neighborhoods are immune to this?
This is so anecdotal but I remember taking a Lyft from Noe Valley to Taraval earlier this year and the ride went through (I'm zooming into Google Maps for the neighbourhood names) Miraloma and surrounding areas. Basically the neighbourhoods just north of Monterey Blvd. The area just looked and felt really nice, homey, and safe.
I've haven't driven past that area before nor after, but it really made me feel like long-term it would be a nice place to reside in SF away from the classic SF problems you've described.
There are two types of "bad" neighborhoods you don't want to live in: the ones where crime lives and the ones crime visits. Much of San Francisco falls victim to the latter which isn't always obvious on an Uber ride or casual walk.
These neighborhoods feel "dreamy" but living there is a different reality. You have to trek down a hill to buy things and when you do, you get the full SF doom loop experience. Most people pay a small fortune to DoorDash and Uber to avoid leaving their dreamy neighborhoods.
No, NW border of Excelsior is 280, so definitely not north of Monterrey Blvd. Broad strokes neighborhood is Twin Peaks area. That part of Twin Peaks is heavily influenced by historically affluent planned developments. Some of the more well known ones listed here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Residence_Parks.
I feel like the ability to deal w/ this type of thing is more person to person assuming you don't have young kids to worry about. Like I do encounter that type of behavior but I don't know for the most part it doesn't bother me. It does make me feel uncomfortable from time to time but I can look past that.
I live in the Mission district with young kids, and we walk / take transit all over the city. Smash and grabs of backpacks left in parked cars are annoying, as are bike thefts, and every once in a while a shouting homeless person is a little sketchy, but just like anywhere else in America automobiles are by far the most dangerous feature of daily life for small kids. We've never felt any serious personal safety concern from pedestrians or people hanging out outside.
We also live in the Mission district and just had a kid. We love the walkability but are not sure about staying here long term. Obviously house prices are a factor, but I also know people ferrying their kids across the city to school (as school allocation is not based on location in SF) and that sounds completely hellish to me.
This is technically true, but in practice it's up to the parents. If they want to send their kid to their local 'Attendance Area' school, then they can put it as their first choice, and there's a high chance they'll get it.
Most parents who need to drive their kids across the city are doing it because the alternative (their kid goes to the nearest school) is, in some way, worse.
No offense, but as someone who lived in SF as a kid, it blows my mind that (I assume) techie white families are raising their kids in Mission, Potrero, etc.
We lived in those neighborhoods cuz they were cheap and there were community services to fall back on. Once our parents could afford it, they would move out as soon as they could.
It's not clear during what time frame you grew up, but note that violent crime is dramatically lower than it was 30+ years ago.
It blows my mind that people are so uncaring about their kids' daily experience (mobility, independence, access to interesting activities, ...) as to move to typical American suburbs with their kids. The benefit of the suburbs is a bigger amount of personal space at home for the same price, but everything outside the house kind of sucks, especially for kids.
We're not necessarily the "techie family" you are imagining though; I spent about a quarter of my childhood in a medium-poor city in Mexico, and my wife grew up in China. Personally I really appreciate having a quite diverse cast of neighbors.
It’s a relatively safe neighborhood if you aren’t black or Mexican. Expect to be vigilant when alone at night if you are. The drug users are more relaxed than in other parts of the city.
Nah it's less safe if they think you have something valuable on you and don't look like someone who'll put up a fight. Gangs you run into nowadays are more into robberies & break-ins that fighting with each other.
I moved to San Francisco from the UK about 10 years ago. Fortunately California has relatively strict gun laws so San Francisco is pretty safe for the US if still bad for a developed country.
Homicides per 100k (from a couple of years ago):
San Francisco: 4.5
US: 6.3
UK/France/Germany: 0.8-1.2
(While most of the difference is due to availability of guns the US is just generally more violent and despite what Trump says the US has 1.5x the knife murders of the UK as well as 70x the gun murders. https://www.euronews.com/2018/05/05/trump-s-knife-crime-clai... )
Living in the Mission there are a handful of shootings per year. But it's a pretty dense neighbourhood so per population it's probably pretty normal for the US. The level of street homelessness is shocking but not as bad as downtown and you get used to that after a while too. Petty crime is definitely a problem.
Personally I worry more about being hit by a car crossing the road since cars are allowed to drive through the pedestrian crossing even when there is a walk signal.
20-25,000 murders per year. Around 40,000 fatal car crashes. Around 5-7000 fatal accidents involving pedestrians. Everyone excited about waymo but opposed to gun and knife wielding security robots.
Sounds like you're a frog in
boiling water. You're so used it you no longer realize the hellhole you live in.
note, I also live in the Mission District and it's a shit hole to me. Gangs hanging out at 20th and Mission fronting for each other. Illegal markets all up and down the street selling stolen goods. Traffic signs and laws being ignored. Valdalism everywhere. Homeless under my window. Mentally ill screaming at 3 am. People drag racing at 2am
I feel the same, when I travel to other larger cities (Portland, Seattle, Minneapolis, Chicago, LA, Atlanta, etc) there are similar problems. It’s not an SF problem it’s a city problem, especially the more “downtown’s” it gets as opposed to more “neighborhood’y”.
Cities have plenty of problems, but by and large they are not a particular danger to children.
I generally feel significantly safer in cities with relatively walkable sidewalks, relatively narrow streets, and lots of pedestrian/bike traffic than I do in typical American suburbs full of strip malls and 6-lane roads. The latter are in my opinion horrendous places to raise children.
It can be polarizing depending on your gender (or rather publicly perceived gender); many women have reported higher levels of harassment and aggression towards them in the same areas others may report fine or acceptable.
I've never forgotten a quote by some one who offered to help a homeless woman who smelled rather horrible. Offered things like soap or a safe place to clean up, the woman responded that the smell actually helped reduce sexual advances towards her.
NOPA is great. If you like to run or have a dog, it’s hard to find a better neighborhood with enough balanced elements (large park access, downtown commute, bars/food, access to the rest of the city, etc).
On the flip side, I can’t imagine being a runner and living in the Mission. The amount of streets you would have to cross every day just to get a few miles in is stressful to think about
I’d only ever driven through it. Residing here for a spell showed me what I’ve been missing. Proximity to GGP and great food options are just a level above. It’d be on the list if I ever (had to) return/ed.
Noe valley, Cole Valley, Inner Sunset, Inner Richmond, most of pacific heights / Marina, Russian hill, all of the southwest neighborhoods if you want a more suburban experience, Excelsior / Glen Park / Bernal as well are all pretty safe neighborhoods, even more so a block from the commercial strips.
SF is a block by block affair though, there’s a few sketchy blocks in all of those neighborhoods, you just have to know the social topology of the city.
I’ve never lived in SF proper but, while visiting, twin peaks always seemed like it would feel isolating to live in. Is it possible to walk anywhere from there (in a “daily convenience” kind of way, not an “urban hiking” kind of way).
Not really. Maybe if you live in the bottom half right above the Castro district it's doable (but steep), but definitely not in the top half and definitely not if you're elderly or have any disability. I usually walked down and took an uber back up, back when the VCs were subsidizing the rides.
As awful as it is that's the trade off: if you can't conveniently walk up the hill, criminals and homeless people usually won't bother either.
Ya, this is also a double edge of transit: if you have a nice convenient public transit system, so does everyone else, including criminals. This is why sometimes neighborhoods fight to keep bus routes or light rail stations out, basically the original NIMBY.
Even if this might be true in isolation it doesn’t generalise
For example the poor public transit available to developed places such as West Sydney, or Bijlmer in Amsterdam have lead to increases in crime rates
Poor physical mobility for the lower classes leads to decreased social mobility which results in increased crime rates for the larger metropolitan areas as a whole
just moved _back_ to central richmond _tonight_ from downtown san leandro. My wife doesn’t drive and we have 3 kids (expecting a 4th). It is the best compromise, though we would have lived NOPA west, and mid-sunset near irving/judah. Alameda was a fallback for wife (probably my first choice though). Kids are in local schools, which are good.
I’m leaving SF to go to Seattle because they changed the job on me but are paying me more than I ever have. I’m relocating to improve my finances temporarily but I really hope I can come back to SF. I’ve been here for over a decade and this feels like home to me.
Y’all got any of that sun over there tho? That’s the main issue. I have been there for all of two weeks and the lack of sun is real. I never knew how much the difference is until I went home for the holidays.
We have lots of sun in the summer (high latitude = 9PM sunsets, very little rain), not so much during the winter (early sunsets at 4PM, lots of rain). We are known for our high per capita sunglasses purchases.
I haven’t seen much poop (although sometimes neighbors throw bags of dog poop in my garbage can, grrr). Seattle attracts more homeless per capita than SF, although the problem is obviously not as bad in the winter as it is in the summer.
I live in San Diego and every morning at around 6 AM downtown There are people pressure washing the streets. I like to go for early morning runs before work and if I go any earlier than 6 AM it’s a mine Feild.
I lived in SF for ~10ish years up until 2020 and still return regularly for work/friends.
I agree that it is mostly downtown that is dead but the rest of your comment seems hyperbolic to me. Hayes Valley, Valencia, Polk was way more lively when I was there.
> best job market
The hundreds in SF laid off this year may disagree
> most lucrative
yes, incomes and stocks do generally increase yoy. Tautology.
After all the layoffs we still have an unemployment rate of of 3.4% (as of Nov). In Seattle it is 3.6% (as of Oct). Also the fact the population is increasing probably reflects job hires. It's expensive here. Who else would move here? Maybe AI startups...
Seconded. It is nutso good in the neighborhoods and the startup energy and ambition between Hayes valley and Silicon Valley (south bay) is absolutely unmatched.
It just sucks people are forced to make a these difficult choices for rent.
I’ve seen confused founders become relentless executors when surrounded by the right vibe. And I’ve seen ambitious founders burnout fighting for traction in an environment that doesn’t foster their energy.
To be a _good_ founder you should also be capable of starting a tractor dealership in Iowa or taking over an accounting firm in Dallas. You have leadership, entrepreneurship, and decision making skills.
Silicon Valley has enough tide to lift all boats that mediocre people like you describe can still have a chance at success and being heralded as mold breaking visionaries.
To me the guy who can run a tech company in the valley and a tractor dealership in Iowa usually becomes the MBA bro. They’re good leaders no doubt but they inevitably become some Private Equity bro, just absolutely inconsequential to the larger economy.
I quite prefer the valley environments ability to take deep domain experts and turn them into the best managers of their own technology.
It’s similar to asking whether students need to go to university to learn a subject when everything there is to learn is available at the touch of a keystroke.
Technically not needed, but turns out it is really beneficial to be with likeminded people with common goals.
I quite liked living in the Tenderloin. It's close to transit, it's cheap, and it's got great restaurants. I wouldn't live there if I had a cohabitating partner or kids, though.
During my year and a half there I had to wash poop off my shoe once. It took me a few minutes. My rent was several hundred dollars per month cheaper than any other place I lived in the Bay area. I'll wash anything off anything for a thousand dollars a minute.
However the neighborhoods are dreamy, as good as ever. The city lost population during the pandemic but it has been gaining and in 2023, it is the fastest growing in the state.
I've been in tech for years here and it is the best job market, most lucrative, and most advanced. It's an opportunity to work here. Just don't live in the tenderloin.