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I really want to see this OS, and have cautious optimism that this could be the first time we'll see a big tech company actually provide an auditable security guarantee!

I think depending on how this plays out, Apple might manage to earn some of the trust its users have in it, which would be pretty cool! But even cooler will be if we get full chain-of-custody audits, which I think will have to entail opening up some other bits of their stack

In particular, the cloud OS being open-source, if they make good on that commitment, will be incredibly valuable. My main concern right now is that if virtualization is employed in their actual deployment, there could be a backdoor that passes keys from secure enclaves in still-proprietary parts of the OSes running on user devices to a hypervisor we didn't audit that can access the containers. Surely people with more security expertise than me will have even better questions.

Maybe Apple will be responsive to feedback from researchers and this could lead to more of this toolchain being auditable. But even if we can't verify that their sanctioned use case is secure, the cloud OS could be a great step forward in secure inference and secure clouds, which people could independently host or build an independent derivative of

The worst case is still that they just don't actually do it, but it seems reasonably likely they'll follow through on at least that, and then the worst case becomes "Super informative open-source codebase for secure computing at scale just dropped" which is a great thing no matter how the other stuff goes



> could be the first time we'll see a big tech company actually provide an auditable security guarantee

AWS Nitro Enclaves [0] come close but of course what Apple has done is productize private compute for its 1b+ macOS & iOS customers!

[0] https://docs.aws.amazon.com/enclaves/latest/user/nitro-encla...


You would combine that with AWS BottleRocket:

https://aws.amazon.com/bottlerocket


Absolutely looking forward to that possibility: https://github.com/bottlerocket-os/bottlerocket/issues/3348


> even if we can't verify that their sanctioned use case is secure, the cloud OS could be a great step forward in secure inference and secure clouds, which people could independently host or build an independent derivative of

Yes, the tech industry loves to copy Apple :)

Asahi Linux has a good overview of on-device boot chain security, https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Apple-Platform-Secur...

> My main concern right now is that if virtualization is employed in their actual deployment, there could be a backdoor that passes keys from secure enclaves in still-proprietary parts of the OSes running on user devices to a hypervisor we didn't audit that can access the containers.

  We’ll release a PCC Virtual Research Environment: a set of tools and images that simulate a PCC node on a Mac with Apple silicon, and that can boot a version of PCC software minimally modified for successful virtualization.
This seems to imply that PCC nodes are bare-metal.

Could a PCC node be simulated on iPad Pro with M4 Apple Silicon?


> Yes, the tech industry loves to copy Apple :)

Yes, most technology is built on other technology ;)

> This seems to imply that normal PCC nodes are bare-metal.

I realize that, but there's plausible deniability in it, especially since the modification could also hide the mechanism I've described in some other virtualization context that uses the unmodified image, without the statement being untrue


> Yes, the tech industry loves to copy Apple :)

Eh, it goes both ways. Even Apple devices got widgets eventually :)




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