> IMO, its not slavery because it is 100% optional.
It is slavery because the State requires prisoners to work for the benefit of the State (though there are some choices of what form of work), punishes them additionally for not working, economically exploits that work, and has (through all four branches of government, including the people exercising their power to legislate directly) worked to maintain that condition, and in many cases the prison firefighters have been explicitly cited as the reason it is important to maintain that system and maintain prison populations to feed it.
Had voters passed, and the State acted in accord with, this years proposition banning involuntary servitude, it might be possible to make the argument that prison firefighters were no longer slave labor, but that didn't happen.
Where is the requirement to work and how does it punish them additionally?
Sentencing is provided completely independent of labor and 99% of prisoners are ineligible or unable to firefight.
>firefighters have been explicitly cited as the reason it is important to maintain that system and maintain prison populations to feed it.
Cited by a proponent of maintaining prison populations, or cited as allegations against such a system?
>Had voters passed, and the State acted in accord with, this years proposition banning involuntary servitude, it might be possible to make the argument that prison firefighters were no longer slave labor, but that didn't happen.
What a strange take. Why would the passage of a proposition redefine the reality of the situation?
> What a strange take. Why would the passage of a proposition redefine the reality of the situation?
If the proposition was passed, and the State acted in accord with it (as I stated before, not just the passage, but the action), then the labor would not be coerced, because the mechanisms by which it is currently coerced would be prohibited.
That was the whole point of the amendment, banning California continuing to exploit the penal servitude exception to the 13th Amendment ban on slavery and involuntary servitude.
> Where is the requirement to work and how does it punish them additionally?
Forced prison labor is legal in California. This means if a prisoner refuses to work they can be punished for that refusal. This could be with solitary confinement or revoking or removing good behavior benefits.
> Sentencing is provided completely independent of labor and 99% of prisoners are ineligible or unable to firefight.
Firefight maybe but 40% of California’s prisoners work. A choice in what type of labor doesn’t change the fact that this is slavery.
> Slave labor is the labor of a slave. Removing the labor does not remove the slavery.
What is happening in California is indentured servitude. I consider that to be a form of slavery. The labor is precisely what makes it slavery.
> How do you distinguish incarceration from slavery?
The compulsory uncompensated labor.
If prisoners received a fair wage and work was optional then I would have no objection. But they don’t receive a fair wage and working is not optional. Thus the prisoners are enslaved.
I think I would be OK with demonetizing all prisoner labor and stipulating that any particularly risky work must be voluntary.
I dont think it is unreasonable to expect non-voluntary labor to be included as part of a normal sentence. Ideally this non-voluntary work would be limited to supporting prison operations (e.g. cooking, cleaning, upkeep, ect). This work offsets the substantial costs of their incarceration to society and is part of the punishment.
I think it is also reasonable to offer fully voluntary service outside of the prison if it benefits society at large. I think it is reasonable to view this as accelerated restitution to society for their crimes, and reward it with earlier release and additional benefits.
I think the main area where we might agree is preventing the prison (or state) from selling their labor for the benefit of a 3rd party.
Overall, I would like to see the expansion of productive prison labor where possible to provide social benefit (for example cleaning up litter, ect.)
It is slavery because the State requires prisoners to work for the benefit of the State (though there are some choices of what form of work), punishes them additionally for not working, economically exploits that work, and has (through all four branches of government, including the people exercising their power to legislate directly) worked to maintain that condition, and in many cases the prison firefighters have been explicitly cited as the reason it is important to maintain that system and maintain prison populations to feed it.
Had voters passed, and the State acted in accord with, this years proposition banning involuntary servitude, it might be possible to make the argument that prison firefighters were no longer slave labor, but that didn't happen.