If the job application requires leetcode, just do it. The worst thing that could happen is you learn something.

I’ve been in the industry since the 1980s. I don’t see AI as any kind of threat. We expected a lot of the waves of technology would reduce the need for programmers but I now view it like Jevon’s paradox: AI will expand IT uses not reduce the number of programmers.

My colleagues all lived through various paradigm shifts (visual programming, no-code, low-code, objects, client server, etc) the work never really changes for the vast majority of programmers doing productivity work like CRUD systems.

Reach out to former co workers for opportunities.

+1 suck it up and do the leetcode. I kept failing until i studied. Never had to do it again at the job.

Hate it myself but +1 if you want to stay in the industry and you don't have other another manner of making yourself indispensible.

If you understand leetcode related stuff then you are sort of more useful than an AI, if not, well then...

FWIW you do not have to do leetcode to get a job. I’m a staff level SWE and I’ve had no problems finding non-leetcode companies, both through my own network and through browsing job listings.

I have literally never done a leetcode “whiteboard code this random problem that has nothing to do with our actual work” interview, in 25+ years in the industry.

Do you make FAANG-tier money though?

No, I don't, assuming you're looking at total comp including stock.

I also don't have crazy hours, stack ranking, mandatory RTO, 6 different levels of OKRs, and all the other bullshit that comes along with a FAANG job.

It’s not hard to make equivalent (or higher) base, but you just lose out on the stock

> just

Or you can just learn a handful of puzzle patterns in exchange for more job opportunities that would have the potential for higher overall pay. Seems like a fair trade to me.

This is a good way to frame it. I have no issue with people who choose to do this, but I choose not to.

It just feels obstinate to me. Most people will jump through all sort of bureaucratic/performative hoops when they're in a job to keep it or angle for promotions/minor raises, but this one that has a much higher average RoI turns them off. If you put your foot down on that sort of thing too then fair enough I suppose.

I have been told that I’m obstinate before :)

To be fair though, I don’t really want a Big Tech job. Several of the FAANGs, especially Facebook, are morally objectionable to me and I would switch careers before working for them. Most others have shitty working conditions with in-office policies, open office layouts, etc, that are detrimental to me getting work done.

So it’s not just about the financial RoI for me.

And I think I’m at least consistent: I’ve never been one to jump through hoops for raises or promotions either.

I see a bit of mixed signal from your post: you like recreational programming, but you hate leetcoding (which are close to puzzles). You mention that the non-technical part of the job (product thinking?) doesn't seem interesting, but you consider content creation which is very much people-facing.

What is it that you like? Not a specific job or task, I mean what is it that you like doing? Solving problems for people, interacting with a team, solving puzzles, deep theoretical stuff?

The intersection of that and what's livable is what is going to work.

I think it’s clear: they just want a creative job.

I get this as I’m the same way. I grew up writing whatever code I wanted, so it seemed like a great match. A few years into my career, I realized I had become just a cog in the wheel and that I’d always just be a cog.

For me, as interesting as my career is, it saddens me that there are so many artist-SWEs like me, because the golden handcuffs can kill your dreams.

>I think it’s clear: they just want a creative job.

What is a creative job?

It's an honest question: depending of your definition, either pretty much everything qualifies, or no realistic path exists.

Musicians? If you make it a job you'll be at least chasing trends, at worst you'll have a marketing team dictating everything from lyrics to your brand of underwear.

Writers? for the majority their books won't ever be read, let alone pay the bills. Even those who make it will be subject to signing books for hours in events, appearing in interviews, and editors meddling to the point of not getting to choose the title.

Academia? have fun with grants and politics.

On the other hand, pretty much every job has a craft behind that can be mastered. Even someone laying bricks can try to improve their movement to be more efficient/healthy.

Finding the bright side is easier for some jobs than it is for others, but in general mindset is king.

> it saddens me that there are so many artist-SWEs like me, because the golden handcuffs can kill your dreams.

Sometimes dreams are just fantasies.

I love programming (and other puzzle-solving). I’d love it slightly more if I could just do it in whatever field or direction stuck my fancy, but I’ve made peace with the idea that we get paid that golden handcuff compensation in exchange for someone else choosing the puzzles we work on to be ones valuable and relevant to them.

If you could have dodged it before you got stuck in that position, what would you have done instead?

Same, and I would’ve gone into songwriting and music production.

Are lc problems puzzles? Could see p.e. being close to that but lc has always felt so much more grindy and less creative.

Merry christmas

Leet code feels like doing crosswords. There's a right answer to it, it's like a puzzle. If completing is a grind that's more of a mindset thing and how your approaching it.

It is a mindset thing insofar as my opinion is that there are more interesting things to practice with, sure. Grindy endeavors aren’t bad, just grindy. Given how much of the practical application side of that practice is handled by libs/pkgs @ runtime for a lot of product dev I’ve been involved with, it can seem a bit much. It isn’t so black and white of course, but this is just an off the cuff musing. I miss whiteboarding sessions, and I feel like the lc grind does a disservice to both sides of the hiring table in a lot of cases. Sure, “what’s a better alternative at scale” comes to mind, but I’ll digress lol

> I hate leetcode and that keeps me away from most of the job opportunities

Odds are that until you can get past this mindset, you will hit a similar wall in every career, it will just be less obvious to you that you're hitting it.

Success at most careers means a lot of tedious grinding out basic skills. If you're lucky you like the grinding, but that's rare.

And here's the important part - getting better at this stuff makes the job more fun, humans really like the feeling of mastery. My first 4 years in SWE were miserable because I had no CS background. But I ground really hard on textbooks and leetcode, every minute of which was uncomfortable, and now my career is awesome!

Maybe SWE isn't for you, but whatever you do, commit to the work.

Maybe I’m not good at the basics, but as an ostensibly quite successful engineer, I have rarely had to do “the basics” at work, and I don’t see how leetcoding would improve my actual performance.

Leetcoding is basically testing how well you can cobble together solutions out of a decently large bag of tools. You run into other tools you have to cobble together as part of actual work, but you never have to memorize those particular tools.

So leetcoding becomes memorizing an arbitrary feeling set of tools that you never actually have to use in practice just in order to prove that you can cobble together solutions on the fly using the tools.

Certain personality types bristle at being told to memorize a large set of things for no practical reason. It feels subservient to do so.

Now if what you are really saying is that forcing yourself to feel subservient is required in a lot of careers in order to succeed, then yes totally :)

> You run into other tools you have to cobble together as part of actual work, but you never have to memorize those particular tools

The statement I like to use as an analogy to this one is:

"I don't need to know how to add or multiply numbers, calculators can do it"

This is true in a certain sense, but if you are numerate you know that speed with numbers allows you to do all kinds of quick checks that less numerate peers cannot. It's my experience that colleagues who don't get good at leetcode style problems don't actually understand the skills they've left on the table.

Why don't you either just say the country you're from or don't say it at all?

Making the reader have to look up which country is the most populous on earth seems like the worst possible way of conveying that you are Indian.

Being Indian is probably not the point he wants to make - it's that he has lots of competition, particularity as a developer.

I agree with you, somewhat.

But now you have taken the trouble to complain that you had to look up “most populous country on earth” and yet contributed nothing to the discussion.

In fact, I have probably saved some readers the trouble of also opening a new tab and looking for this added context, by providing it directly within this thread.

Really? Isn’t it common knowledge among educated people? Like the biggest country.

I think OP wrote their country like this as a figure of speech and to state that they are one of many.

China was the most populous country on earth for a very long time, that is common knowledge among educated people. It makes a difference in the story if they're struggling in an economy five times wealthier than India's.

That's why I looked it up. That's why some other people will look it up.

This is the population difference we're talking about:

1. India, 1,463,865,525

2, China, 1,416,096,094

There is usually no "calling". Do your work, earn your money, get over it, is the best advice you're going to get. Save for an early retirement if you hate it too much.

You don't have to enjoy your job. You have 4 YoE. Maybe grind LeetCode and get a job in the next 6 months.

If 4 years of work can provide for 2 years of retirement, you can retire at 50 or so.

Assume that your cash runs out. What will you then do?

Until you rebuild your cash base and have some cash flow, please hit the pause button on seeking your calling. One's calling can change over the years, and multiple times at that. Those who have found their calling are able to continue in it because they also make money to sustain living in a self-supported society (there are no benevolent sponsors like Kings and rich donors anymore who would support artists for the remainder of their lives)

Even with AI coming in, there is a lot of need for those who can make maintainable systems and systems that do not lose data. How good are you with your basics? Solving the SICP can help you pick up new programming languages. Solving the leetcode and clearing system design interviews can help you land a paying job. Being AI-savvy can help you get jobs at places that have budgets for AI tools (and therefore also have budgets for other things like salaries).

I'm guessing I'm over twice your age but my situation is similar to yours in a couple aspects. What I decided to do is focus on exploring the new capabilities that AI will allow individuals to do (especially those of us who can code). There are a lot of ppl who are justifiably frustrated with the current state of the tools. But don't get discouraged by that. I've seen A LOT of tech waves. It's still early in the AI era. I won't suggest any particular approach but recommend giving it some thought.

BTW, being an old timer, I also hated the leetcode thing when it became a widespread thing after Google adopted the practice in the wake of The Joel (Spolsky) Test. But you know, years later when I had to go through some interviews, I did spend a few months studying it and it turned out to be pretty fun. But passing technical screenings didn't help me land a job... only connecting via my network seemed to make any difference.

I had the opposite experience. I didn't have any ins at big tech but I'd get a call every year or two somehow. Just put your resume out there i guess.

Now when i refer people the recruiters don't even bother to contact them. Even though they have great resumes. Not sure what's going on.

If you're worried about AI, content creation seems like the worst possible choice. If you want to future proof your career, I suggest finding a specialty that needs some hands on work, e.g. embedded development. AI is not going to pick up boards, attach probes and debug oscilloscope traces.. a least for a little while yet.

Become a Tradesman (Carpenter, Electrician, Mechanic, Welder, Plumber, Cleaner, etd) or a tradesman agency! They've become highly paid and most agencies are ripe for acquisition.

But since if you're so lazy/undisciplined to disregard skilling up (Leetcode, Coursera, Udemy, Pluralsight, etc) then I think your race to become one won't be any easier and I can't recommend anything else.

Good luck!

> But since if you're so lazy/undisciplined to disregard skilling up (Leetcode, Coursera, Udemy, Pluralsight, etc)

What's with the hostility in these comments? OP straight up said he just doesn't like the damn job. Grinding leetcode is not gonna change that. Is everyone just choosing to ignore this?

Read Accelerando (free online) and the top posts of all time from Venkatesh Rao's blog (Ribbonfarm). Total time 12-16 hours.

You'll get a few really good ideas about whether or not you want to move to a different part of tech or leave tech altogether.

I haven't had to do "leetcode" at any job interview other than Amazon or Facebook, but I don't want to work there anyways. It isn't actually the standard that people on HN pretend it is, AFAICT.

Pivot to being a student again :)

> I come from the world's most populous country.

> Realistically, moving abroad is tough but I want to! I applied to a lot of startups but not getting any positive response.

I was in a similar situation. After being bored doing CRUD, I applied for a masters program and moved to Germany in 2019 (I was 26 at the time). One of the better decisions I’ve made. There is no tuition fee (!!) in Germany for international students, and it is not that hard to get admitted to _some_ university (though actually graduating is hard). Computer science masters programs are usually in English. It is a fairly risk-free way to try out your hand at some research, and if you don’t like it, you can always find some software engineering job.

It’s not going to be easy - university applications are a pain in the ass, you will still have to learn some German e.t.c. But it’s a good way to “reset” your life.

> I hate leetcode and that keeps me away from most of the job opportunities.

One way out of this is to interview deliberately at smaller companies.

Maybe a startup? if you have the time, what's to lose