The problem is that the Framework starts so far behind in performance and battery efficiency of a cheaper Macbook that you aren’t saving money on perf upgrades.
You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality.
I don't love this comparison, because I have to use Linux, not Mac. It's not really optional for me, and Asahi simply isn't far enough along to fill the gap.
As a result, the question is more Framework vs. Dell or Lenovo, and that creates a much smaller gap in capability in the 13" form factor.
Side complaint: I'm irked that the smaller surface laptop didn't continue with custom AMD chips since they were getting quite powerful in the last one.
Other complaint is that because of comments here I went looking at framework but it doesn't show what GPU comes with AMD processors so I'm going to have to not look at this on mobile.
I have a Thinkpad, Asus and surface 13" amd and none have fully scratched the itch for my go to machine. Asus is powerful enough but the build quality and durability are pure garbage.
Where is Asahi not far enough if I may ask? I've been daily driving it for 2 years by this point.
While it was not really useable for mainstream usecases in the beginning (no speakers, no webcam, other random issues), it did get better month by month and problems got resolved, I find useability equal to my x86 laptops now.
Find me a new MacBook Air that’s $1000 for 2TB of storage + 32GB of RAM, because that’s what I paid for my Framework 13 brand new (before RAM insanity, but this would still only cost about $1200 today).
A $50 battery pack solved the battery efficiency problem.
So for a little extra weight (external battery + FW13 weighs the same as a MB Pro 14”) I get a lot more actual capability in places that matters than a base MacBook Air.
I’ve got two more USB-C/Thunderbolt ports than the Air on both sides of the system with the option to swap them for any I/O I want.
And I’m not stuck with macOS arbitrarily dropping support for my non-upgradable all-soldered hardware every 10 years.
(I also couldn’t really find a similar Lenovo at anything close to that price/spec with the kind of requirements I have - good keyboard with low flex, nice to haves like the 3:2 aspect ratio, generally a programmer-oriented laptop with good. My second choice might be a Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition. The T14 series has unacceptable deck flex. Even value systems like the IdeaPad 5i 16 cost more. I could see myself enjoying a Zenbook like the Zenbook Duo but again it costs more).
There is a gulf between the two and that’s what is sacrificed on the FW13. I m not saying someone can’t decide to prioritize modularity, storage, and repairability over performance, but there is a ‘price’ to making that choice.
The MBA has about a 20% better score on the single thread perf benchmark. It's better, but is it that significant ?
Especially as it has no active cooling. By the time thermal throttling kicks in the FW13 will keep chugging along. The MBP solves that issue, albeit at significantly higher price range.
Then again, the amount of RAM the FW13 can take will also help in many cases.
Right, I was going to bring up real world over geekbench.
For example, in the real world, you’ve gotta run most PC games using CrossOver on Mac with significant performance implications or have them not work at all, where modern Linux/x86 is nearly fully PC game compatible, and the AMD integrated graphics are much more game-optimized than Apple’s.
The arbitrary spec limits on Apple systems also get in your way. Want 4TB of storage? Want more than 32GB of RAM? You have to upgrade to a MacBook Pro even if you don’t want all the other features and expense of the Pro model.
Is all you want a USB-C port on the right side or an SD card reader? Pony up the extra $600 for the 14” MacBook Pro.
A Dodge Neon SRT4 is faster than a lot of BMWs but it doesn’t make it a better car to live with.
This is Apple’s price anchor in action. The base price is essentially not the real price. Anyone who can use the capability of their chips to their fullest will need more RAM and storage. Even casual users will find 256GB tight sometimes. Goodbye, “Optimize storage.”
In practical use, there really isn’t anything my system can’t do that a MacBook Air can besides battery stamina. Since moving to Linux/x86 gaming has become way easier (goodbye CrossOver). Programming and containerization is way better on Linux, and I finally have the RAM for it.
I acknowledge Apple’s lead in their chips but that’s only one component of the experience, and it’s not so far ahead that it’s a major detriment to choose something else.
There are all sorts of other things that don't show up on a spec sheet so easily that Framework isn't competitive on.
It has a diving board trackpad, significantly worse speakers, no zonal dimming on the display (comparing to MacBook Pro, which higher end specs of the Framework cost as much as), general poor body rigidity, an aggressive fan curve that ramps up audibly on short loads (the Air doesn't even have a fan and the Pro can handle a couple mins of all-core 100% load without becoming audible), etc etc.
As much as I dislike Apple's business practices it's undeniable that other vendors are generally selling significantly cheaper feeling devices at the same price point. These are not niche things, you feel the cheapness on the Framework with every touchpad click, short bursty CPU task, HDR video, audio playback, heck even picking it up off the desk.
Trackpad isn’t as good, true. But it’s not a bad trackpad, either, and I would counter that other operating systems that aren’t macOS support external normal mice a lot better. On macOS I needed to install a separate paid program (Smooze Pro) to make the scroll wheel of an external mouse normal for gaming or other purposes. I would be very interested to try the haptic trackpad on the Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition.
macOS assumes you’re using a trackpad to a fault, to the point where I prefer a trackpad on macOS desktop systems. That’s an operating system choice that a conspiracy theorist might tell you is Apple’s way of artificially differentiating their patent-protected trackpad hardware products. If Apple just used a normal mouse and designed the OS around it like everyone else they couldn’t sell you the advantage of their fancy trackpad, since we all know a dedicated mouse is more precise and quick, so that situation is yet another crazy expensive vendor lock-in accessory along with the Touch ID keyboard. Over $300 if you buy both for your desk setup!
Also remember that this is a laptop for programming…how often am I using my mouse?
Worse speakers, this is true, though it’s improved by installing Easy Effects and running a Framework profile. I use my AirPods Pro 3 on the Framework and they work great with it. MacBook speakers sound really good but they are still laptop speakers.
I don’t agree that the Framework body rigidity is poor. Do you own one or are you just assuming it’s poor? It’s very comparable to a MacBook, the screen has slightly more flex but the keyboard deck and core system is almost identically rigid.
Zonal dimming is only available on the MacBook Pro models that cost $600 more than my Framework, which doesn’t include the cost of upgrading them to equivalent 2TB/32GB configuration. So realistically, for my needs I would have had to spend double to get zonal dimming, which doesn’t benefit my programming work at all, though it would presumably benefit gaming. But gaming is my secondary use case.
Also, if Framework ever makes a micro-LED screen in the future, I’ll be able to replace it for a very reasonable cost. They have already released a display upgrade and surely will upgrade it again in the future as more panels become available.
You can customize the fan curve of a Framework! But the fan noise was never a consideration of mine. I’m not an audio producer.
You’re saying I’m constantly burdened by this computer but you’re not really considering how I’m using the laptop. I don’t care much for HDR content and barely watch television, fan noise hasn’t been an issue, this laptop is almost a full pound less heavy than my previous 14” MacBook Pro and almost identical in weight to a MacBook Air, so I don’t understand how picking it up is a worse experience.
You didn’t even mention the weak webcam on the Framework! It sucks! But I don’t use it, just like I didn’t use my MacBook webcam. I’m a programmer remember? I don’t go on camera. That’s for sales bros. FaceTime on iPhone is better than the MacBook anyway.
> Also remember that this is a laptop for programming…how often am I using my mouse?
All the time?
Some of us have embraced IDE and graphical tooling in desktop systems since the 1990, after computers with desktop environments became affordable and we weren't stuck with text only interfaces.
I use a graphical IDE. That still means my hands are on the keyboard 90% of the time. Graphical IDEs still use a lot of keyboard shortcuts.
And like I said, the trackpad isn’t bad, it’s just not the world’s best trackpad.
To reiterate further, macOS demands you use the trackpad for gestures that aren’t demanded in other operating systems. They want you to buy their $150 trackpad even though you’re sitting at a desk and could easily use a $20-50 third party mouse.
I also am a programmer, and I care about all of these things on my laptop. I used my trackpad to click reply on this webpage, that's not a rare thing!
If you ever have a meeting where multiple people huddle around a laptop, that uses speakers, webcam, and microphone, and the MacBook does so much better in that scenario. We have interrupted meetings to swap from a Framework 16 (old CTO's laptop) to my MacBook Pro because participants simply couldn't hear those of us slightly further away from the laptop!
Zonal dimming is an advantage whenever you have black areas on the screen, and good fan tuning is an advantage if you want to compile some changes during a meeting without thinking "this task will turn my laptop into a jet engine and distract everyone else".
If you don't care about these things, then you can find way cheaper devices than the Framework that are cost competitive on core specs. Let's get some Framework pricing as a datum, Framework will sell me the AI 350 and 2.8K display for $1939CAD, it has no RAM, no SSD, no charger, no ports... if I add 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD, charger, and 2xUSB-C, 1xHDMI, 1xUSB-A, we're looking at $2403CAD.
If I don't care about the less measurable components, why would I not buy something like this $400USD (~$550CAD) laptop [1] another poster in this thread found which also has an AI 350, 16GB RAM, and a 512GB SSD? I can buy four of these laptops for the price of the Framework and still have some cash left over! If I need more RAM I'm sure I can find a similarly cheapo laptop with a SODIMM by actually googling myself.
I think the reality is both you and I do care about these other parts, just maybe with a different minimum acceptable quality. But even inside PC land Framework is not competitive. Higher-end X1 Carbons have haptic trackpads at the same price point as Framework is offering diving boards. Across the market there are OLEDs for less money than Framework is charging for LCDs.
Personally, I don't care about trackpad alone so much, merely that the pointing device situation be acceptable. When programming, I type a lot and then do a few small mouse actions (e.g. expand some segment on a docs webpage, or mouse around some GUI to test the feature I have been building out). With a haptic trackpad, I can move my thumb from the spacebar to the top of the trackpad which is just below it and do my mouse actions without significant hand movement. This is not possible with a diving board design as the top of the trackpad is not clickable. A pointing stick is absolutely an acceptable solution to this problem, but Framework also does not offer those, again despite price-competitive offerings from, say, Lenovo offering it.
Let's briefly look at Lenovo's website. I can spec out a ThinkPad P14s Gen 6 here in Canada from Lenovo's website [2] with a 120Hz OLED screen, trackpoint, Ryzen AI 350, 1x16GB SODIMM and 512GB NVMe for $1529CAD, that's a fully working computer for less than the barebones Framework, with a better display and pointing device situation! I can use the empty second SODIMM port with a single 48GB stick and get 64GB, and stick the NVMe in an external enclosure to use as an external SSD, and deck it out with whatever market-rate drive and RAM I can get.
The Framework is broadly uncompetitive even if you won't consider a MacBook.
Like I said, Framework 13 trackpad isn’t bad, it’s just not the best in the world. It’s not any worse than the traditional trackpads that are on Lenovo systems (but I’d love to try the haptic one on the X9 Aura Edition).
This $2400 CAD price point is pure fantasy to me because that’s not what I paid. I paid $800 for a DIY system then about $200 or $300 for RAM and storage (USD).
The ThinkPad P14 you specced out is not significantly more competitive. I’ll use my US website prices to compare. The base model starts at $1044. It comes with a Ryzen AI 340 which is a far worse chip for integrated graphics than my 7640u, it’s like 60% of the speed of the 7640u graphics. The display in that model is the base model display, not a 120Hz OLED, similar specs to the Framework. You have to add $10 for fingerprint reader then I have to still buy a new stick of RAM and a bigger SSD.
I also tried a Lenovo T14 in store and felt like it had way too much deck flex. I had no idea if the P series is the same but Lenovo felt plasticky. Framework is an aluminum chassis and the keyboard deck flex is about as good as it gets before you sign your life away to Apple.
The $500 cheapo spec laptops aren’t as nice as the Framework! I swear FW haters just insist that the hardware quality is budget tier and it must suck since it’s modular and that it’s not a premium-class system. But that is just not true. The Lenovo T14 felt cheap in comparison. If I get a $500 cheapo laptop I’m getting even more plastic and flex.
The ThinkPad T14 keyboard was not good enough for me. The Framework 13 has better keyboard. I like it better than my previous MacBook Pro! A $500 cheapo laptop isn’t going to satisfy me there.
In terms of Linux support, Framework is premium. The company itself focuses on it more than Lenovo. Hardware firmware gets updated automatically within Linux, and there’s a dedicated community surrounding it, which you won’t get on some random $500 HP laptop.
Maybe Lenovo offers an equivalent value or sometimes even a better value when there’s a sale. For my needs Apple couldn’t even get close to the kind of price I paid for what I got.
One more sidenote, you brought up buying the power supply separate, which I didn’t have to do because I already own an Anker Prime charger that I’ve used with my previous MacBook for being a superior travel solution compared to OEM. My monitor on my desk already provides USB-C PD. So really, if I buy a laptop that includes one it’s just e-waste that I don’t need.
> Framework starts so far behind in performance ...
Honest question and not meant to flame anyone. What benchmark are you referring to regarding performance; spec sheets or your tools are not working correctly or working slowly?
Just trying to understand users needs in upgrading. I have some new MacBooks and some old linux laptops. They both equally work just fine for what I need to do, and I am starting to question the need for me to update to a new MacBook M* chipset moving forward.
It's more a matter of effiency and battery life, and that's mostly due to Linux more than inherent to the Framework or its hardware (try running Asahi Linux on an M MacBook and just notice your battery life be cut in half).
I love my M1 Pro MacBook and I wish I could have the same efficiency when running Linux but I can't.
My Framework runs faster, but a lot hotter, louder and with a lot less battery life. But I feel like I'm supporting a good company, a good cause, and I love that I can do software updates without fearing that it fucked everything up like every major macOS release does.
> I love my M1 Pro MacBook and I wish I could have the same efficiency when running Linux but I can't.
No doubt. And don't forget Apple nailed the trackpad experience too. But I seldom need to use my laptop for 20 hours away from an A/C outlet. It's nice, but not necessary for me.
With that being said, I personally am going to start abandoning the Apple ecosystem with each device that NEEDS to be replaced. I'm tired of features being forced into each software cycle, and I don't want any AI on my devices.
I'm going to lean into Framework (or keep my old T480 alive) and GrapheneOS when needed.
I have Home Assistant running on an old Raspberry Pi and it is fabulous. Way quicker than HomeKit, and easier to tinker with, along with all kinds of integrations.
That's a bit interesting, because IME linux on my framework 13 (7840u, 61wh battery) is surprisingly very solid. Fans almost never spin up (even with a windows KVM plus lot of firefox tabs), and I can get 6-8 hours easy, and 10+ hours of battery life if I push it (without even using power saving mode), on native linux (Fedora 40).
Windows 10 in comparison gives maybe 4-5 hours of battery plus lots of fan usage (but lesser ram usage often).
> You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality.
There is enormous historical irony in this comment. The Apple Distortion Field was an observable delusion for decades before Apple's ARM silicon.
That said, CPU performance is just one criterion in choosing a laptop, and Framework's modularity is a greater idea than anything Apple has ever done for re-use.
We bought all of ours for the idea of not being glued to the Apple ecosystem, and that reality has provided the performance our group requires. Each unit is the top of the line i7 and they last all day - any further requirements for even faster processing is handled by the server farm upstream. Supposedly Apple knows best about performance and longetivity by enforcing clamshell mode for users that want to use only an externally connected display.
You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality.