If it helps, I've been using XFCE since 2007 and it's remained functionally identical for all of those almost 20 years. It just works, it improves a tiny bit with each major upgrade, and they don't rearrange everything every couple years for the sake of justifying a salary.
Maybe it's a good opportunity to consider whether you actually have to keep running on Apple's treadmill.
I’d love an XFCE (or even gnome tbh) environment on a properly built laptop, unfortunately only Apple is able to build something that works in all areas that matter: sleeps when lid closed, wakes when lid opens, touchpad and display don’t suck.
I don’t see anyone in these replies really addressing the touchpad. Would love to hear from people who have used macbooks if they have found a Linux machine that matches the Apple trackpad.
“Never tried a MacBook, my Linux machine trackpad always worked perfectly” is the usual response I get when I press for a response… but without trying Apple (on this one thing) you’ll never understand until you’ve experienced the downgrade.
Around 2018 I used a Mac at work and a Dell XPS at home and I had zero issues with the trackpad on the Dell. It was a bit smaller than the Mac's, but I actually preferred that because it was so large I'd sometimes move the mouse accidentally. Back then I thought PCs had finally caught up with Mac trackpads, but was extremely disappointed when the next XPS had one of those trackpads that is just integrated with the laptop cover (it's like a touchscreen instead of a pad inside a cut-off, if that makes sense). My guess is they changed for the aesthetics, but it was so bad that I returned it. I haven't used a good trackpad on a Linux PC since that Dell.
I switched from mac to linux for my personal dev machine 5-6 years ago but kept using macbooks at work until recently. The keyboard and trackpad are slightly better on macs in my experience, but the difference is small enough that I never think about it.
One caveat is that I've never been a power user of trackpad gestures, so if that's central to your workflow I can't say how the platforms compare.
Overall I'm immensly happy about dropping Apple for Linux, it was definitely the right decision. The initial migration takes a bit to work out but the beautiful thing with Linux is that if you don't like something enough you can usually find a way to change or fix it; with Apple you're left screaming into the void.
> but without trying Apple (on this one thing) you’ll never understand until you’ve experienced the downgrade.
I don't doubt you find something special about the macOS trackpad experience, but I've used a Mac every day at work for 3 years and I genuinely don't feel any more or less fond of its trackpad than I do the one on my Framework laptop running Linux. They're both trackpads that do trackpad things. Shrug.
Do you use a mouse most of the time? That’s the other variable I wonder about. When I used Linux I found it normal to plug in a mouse whenever possible, but when I switched to macOS and got used to the trackpad I stopped using a mouse or keyboard, even if I’m plugged into a bigger screen.
On my Framework, I only use the trackpad, don't have a mouse for it. My work mac laptop lives on a desk so I mostly use a mouse for it, but also use the trackpad plenty when I head to a conference room for meetings etc.
One thing you might've missed in the last decade, is Linux relatively recently gained a new click mode that works like macOS does. One finger left click, two finger right click, two finger scrolling, etc.
Since it's Linux, it is very configurable and may not be enabled by default depending on your distro.
Thank you, this is the sort of response I need to take framework seriously. I asked because had genuinely never found anyone who could make an honest comparison (I used Linux in pre macOS days but that was a decade ago).
> unfortunately only Apple is able to build something that works in all areas that matter: sleeps when lid closed, wakes when lid opens, touchpad and display don’t suck
In my case I'd add:
- Chassis that doesn't flex like crazy
- Battery life good enough that I typically don't need to think about AC outlet accessibility
- Can sit in standby for upwards of a week without battery drain forcing it to shut down
- Is inaudible except when maxing out CPU or GPU for several minutes
- Has a screen panel with a resolution that's either 1x or 2x UI scaling native
The number of laptops in the market that check these boxes is disappointingly tiny.
FWIW that all worked out of the box for me on my Intel Framework. But yes, it's fair to say there are tradeoffs for each solution. Maybe Apple's cons are getting big enough these days. Worth considering.
For me the touchpad experience is not just about the hardware. I got a Magic Trackpad for my Linux desktop hoping that it would at least be somewhat comparable to my MacBook. But scrolling and gestures are nowhere near as consistent and fluid as in macOS since the software support just isn't there.
As a fairly typical example, getting Firefox on Linux to actually scroll smoothly takes googling and fiddling with settings. Gesture support is hit or miss. On macOS, Firefox behaves just like any other native app in this regard.
This was a few weeks ago. IIRC, the issue with Firefox was not that it didn't scroll but that the scrolling wasn't inertial unless you changed some settings.
Which version? I have a X1 Carbon from, uhh, 2017? It supports S3 sleep. I'd think about an upgrade, if only I wasn't worried about sleep issues. I run Debian if that makes any difference.
Actually now that I think about it, my visceral reaction is one of dread: a feeling the trouble will be more than the benefit of a new computer.
I have a thinkpad p1 with popos, but it doesn’t sleep properly. Closing the lid causes it to be super active. I have to lay it down up side down so the ventilation gaps are not blocked, otherwise it overheats. Burned one SSD this way.
> all areas that matter: sleeps when lid closed, wakes when lid opens, touchpad and display don’t suck.
All of these seem to be fine on my thinkpad (true, I probably have somewhat lower standards for passable display). Battery life sucks a bit, what I can usually fine outlet somewhat to plug into.
I’ve combined my MacBook with a Linux desktop for about five years now. Linux has its pros as a developer, but IMHO daily driving it is like walking around with pebbles in my shoes.
Something as basic as scrolling feels slightly inconsistent in just about every app and keybindings are all over the place. There’s always the allure of getting the config ”just right” but after a while I swear I start seeing Sisyphus’ reflection in my screen.
What DE are you using? Some of the higher profile ones (Gnome, KDE) try to be all smooth and polished and feature-full and in my opinion just introduce more complications and bugs that get in the way of just being a good desktop. I like XFCE because it's just a really good, simple window manager, desktop, and set of basic utilities. Other than that it just gets out of your way and doesn't make you relearn how to do things every few years. It's like if the Win98 desktop got another 30 years of gentle refinement.
But it doesn’t really matter, since the DE doesn’t determine how individual apps behave.
My baseline is OSX from decade ago OSX with native apps where everyone was following the Apple HIG so consistently that using a Java app felt like waking up in the twilight zone. macOS these days have fallen quite a bit from its UX glory days but there’s still quite a bit to go before it hits the level of Ubuntu or Windows.
On Linux it feels to me like every app exists in its own parallell dimension where you never know if even the basic laws of physics still apply.
Fair. I guess I haven't had that experience, but so much stuff is web-based these days that probably 90% of my computing time is just spent in a browser and the rest in just a handful of applications that I know well.
I'd guess that I am unusually picky about UX for being a techie. The story would probably have been very different 20 years ago when fiddling with my computer was more of a hobby than a chore.
Yeah, could be. You mentioned elsewhere in this thread having to tinker a bunch to get scrolling in Firefox to be smooth and I don't even know what that means :) I just put 2 fingers on the touchpad and move them up and Firefox scrolls the page down and I'm happy, haha.
Anyway sounds like you've already done what I suggested and it didn't out work you. I hope for your sake Apple comes to their senses soon!
I'm completely with you on this. Everything from scrolling to how windows behave makes a huge difference in the feeling of quality and responsiveness.
Once you're spoiled by a macOS machine's smoothness, it's hard to use anything else, where cursors feel like they're literally lagging behind your trackpad movements and land somewhere imprecise, and scrolling feels like opening a rusty car door as it catches on itself and you feel the friction.
macOS on an Apple Touchpad is like using a well-oiled machine by comparison. These things really matter!
I'm in the same position and understand your complaints about the lack of uniformity across applications in Linux DEs. But I use the Linux desktop as a daily driver because I absolutely despise the lack of customization in macOS, especially as it relates to "virtual workspaces" or "virtual desktops." In Linux, I can have multiple different desktops, each named intuitively, and each with its own set of applications. In macOS, I can't even _name_ the virtual desktops. What's more absurd is the "logic" around when an application has focus when it's minimized, and how its window behaves when you Cmd-Tab to it. Utterly exasperating that Apple, a company who has long prided itself on HCI, falls so far short of the mark in intuitive interface behavior.
”Intuitive” means very different things to different people.
Personally I don’t see anything intuitive about having named workspaces. In my desktop where I have a 42” screen I use pop shell with tiling and unnamed workspaces. On the MacBook I’ll just use fullscreen and exposé. Even though I’ve used the concept for decades I still do not find floating windows to be ”intuitive” except for dialog and similar transient UI.
Maybe it's a good opportunity to consider whether you actually have to keep running on Apple's treadmill.