Specifically volatile organic compounds, because cars don't emit very much of that particular type of pollution anymore. If you look at overall emissions across all types of air pollution, cars are still much worse.
Photocatalyzed reactions between NOx and hydrocarbons create ozone and particulates. Back in the day, US EPA focused on reducing hydrocarbon emissions from vehicles, paint and so on. Because it was easier than reducing NOx emissions from vehicles. The problem is that some areas, such as the Blue Ridge Mountains, have high natural hydrocarbon levels from trees. Plus personal care products. Without the NOx pollution, hydrocarbon emissions wouldn't be so problematic.
"Most organic compounds in soaps and detergents dissolve in water and end up in sewer systems (20), with negligible amounts emitted from wastewater treatment plants (21)"
I didn't read the full paper, but this is the only mention of soap in there. Soap seems to be okay with respect to air pollution. Mind you, a lot of "bath bars" on the market these days are not soap, but that's a completely different topic.
Perhaps the article about this paper (and unwashed hippies in general) are wrong about soap?
From the abstract:
"A detailed mass balance demonstrates that the use of volatile chemical products (VCPs)—including pesticides,
coatings, printing inks, adhesives, cleaning agents, and personal care products now
constitutes half of fossil fuel VOC emissions in industrialized cities."
Okay... That is not what the linked article says at all.
So basically I've actually been washing with "bath bars/liquids/detergents" instead of actual soap.. uhmmm
I usually read the ingredients on pretty much everything I buy, but I always thought "lauryl sulphate*" stuff and palmitate oil and others where just industrial versions of fatty acids in regular soap...I guess I was wrong.
"Soap" strictly refers to fat+lye, most personal cleaners on the market today are not soap because they are made with synthetic detergents such as sodium laureth sulfate.
I think they are correct about the soap, though. I use the unscented form of Hippie Soap (Dr. Bronners) and it does have a citrus scent that goes away quickly after it is first opened.
Zero voc paints are nice. I'm not sure if they are really zero voc or just much lower than usual voc, but they do smell much better.
We repainted one of our kids bedrooms with an emission free paint (IIRC, https://www.auro.de/en/products/walls-and-ceilings/dispersio... ) instead of the usual latex wall paints. Painting without the usual smell felt really strange. Particularly so for my spouse, who easily gets a headache from strong smells.
Also, if you read the fine-print on normal latex paints, the recommendation is to not live in the room for a month after painting. I don't know anyone who has ever followed such..
I know it sounds strange, but if you can make it through the first month or two of not using body soap or shampoo regularly you'll be better off in all ways. You won't need styling product for your hair, it will have a natural oil that works. You won't need deodorants or perfumes. And, if you can switch to cold showers, you won't need to use moisturizers either.
I know 10 or 15 minute cold showers are less pleasant, but they wake you up and make the rest of the winter less hellish. I actually love the cold at this point.
While I don't recommend this daily hygiene plan, for the doubters on HN there is some research into this which does not conflict with the parent's statements.
According to a variety of authorities, body odor is the result of bacterial interaction with sweat and oil excretions of the body. The medical name for severe body odor is bromhidrosis. But the key is that there is an interaction between the microbiome in the area around your sweat glands, and your sweat that causes the odor.
Anthropologists studying primitive peoples have found many cases of people who do not bathe regularly and yet do not smell either. A group at MIT did some studies with repopulating the microbiome with ammonia consuming bacteria from soil as a way of avoiding body odor without washing. And the folks at the Microbiome project cultivated a bunch of microbiomes from people's arm pits and thighs which also informed this area (although there isn't really a pro-biotic deodorant that I know of yet)
As I understand it, showering and washing isn't getting rid of "odor" it is getting rid of bacteria that is outgassing odor after processing your sweat. You could be odor free without showering with the right bacteria consuming the sweat.
Until we can control the microbiomes at will whe trick is that it's very hard to tell if you are one of the people who won't smell bad if you skip the soap and deodorant, or if you're one of the people who will. Especially if you're single. :)
Personally I've found I don't need a ton of soap, can get by without deodorant if not especially active, and can skip shampoo most days but do need conditioner and aggressive rubbing it in/scalp self-massage to avoid dandruff.
The conditioner helps with styling it / keeping it feeling smooth and pliable. Especially since I still shampoo once or twice a week for additional dandruff control, which wipes out some of the natural oils.
The aggressive rubbing is the part that does the daily dandruff control. Seems to exfoliate the dead skin.
Anthropologists studying primitive peoples have found many cases of people who do not bathe regularly and yet do not smell either.
I was homeless for nearly six years. The last couple, I showered about once a month most of the time. No, I did not stink to high heaven.
I actually smelled worse when I had a corporate job and showered twice a day because I was extremely ill. I smelled worse when I was first homeless and showering daily at a women's shelter because I was still ill.
As I gradually got healthier on the street, my hair got less greasy and other things changed. This is why the advice that you just need to get through the first month doesn't necessarily generalize. These changes occurred gradually over the course of several years as my own microbiome, nutritional status and other metrics changed.
According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deodorant#Overview) it is more a matter of not having bacteria than of having the right ones. It says that washing and shaving one’s armpits are contributing factors to having bacterial colonies, and, hence, smelly armpits:
”When adult armpits are washed with alkaline pH soap, the skin loses its acid mantle (pH 4.5 - 6), raising the skin pH and disrupting the skin barrier. As many bacteria thrive in this elevated pH environment, this makes the skin susceptible to bacterial colonization.
[…]
Underarm hair wicks the moisture away from the skin and aids in keeping the skin dry enough to prevent or diminish bacterial colonization. The hair is less susceptible to bacterial growth and therefore is ideal for preventing the bacterial odor.”
I think deodorant mostly is an example of capitalism creating demand where none exists.
> I think deodorant mostly is an example of capitalism creating demand where none exists.
That’s the most foolish thing I’ve read in a long time.
When I was growing up, I was a bit stubborn regarding use of soap and deodorant: I pretty much refused to use anything but water to shower, and never used deodorant (or any other topical substance, for that matter).
That approach worked just great, until I hit puberty... Trust me, if you think nobody needs deodorant just as long as you don’t use soap (or some other such nonsense), I am the living proof of just how extremely far from the truth you are.
Of course, many people out there will never need deodorant (genetics play a large part here, according to some studies I’ve read). There may even be some microbiological technology we can find to cure body odor in alternate ways. But to assume that deodorant is a universally needless product (in favor of not using soap) is incredibly naive, or nearsighted.
I’ll save responding to your random derision of capitalism for another debate.
>That approach worked just great, until I hit puberty... Trust me, if you think nobody needs deodorant just as long as you don’t use soap (or some other such nonsense), I am the living proof of just how extremely far from the truth you are.
oh, middle school... i can certainly attest to your experience.
> Of course, many people out there will never need deodorant
Many? The only ethnicity that does not have that is asians IIRC, they lack a certain gene for body odor. So i think it's really everyone but them.
It's not surprising at all that widespread, cheap, effective means to reduce body odor would make it less socially acceptable to have body odor.
There are many unpleasant aspects of being human that we tolerate, because we have no other choice. Through time, technology is created that helps us deal with more and more of these things. That's only natural, and good.
A guy at work come from a different culture and don't put on deodorant and I can smell him every time he walks near me. I guess he doesn't smell his own odor because he got used to it, but other people notice.
In the same way, sometimes, when the trashcan is full, I don't really notice the smell until I leave the house, breathe the outside air and come back inside after. Then it hit me.
Also, how can one really clean his ass crack without soap? Water alone is definitely not enough.
It takes a bit of something-something in terms of communications, which I probably lack. I once asked a person (nicely, I thought) with BO, loud chewing, and unfettered burping to reconsider and he started screaming at me instead. Be careful, is all I can say.
I wish I had done that but getting HR involved seemed like the nuclear option to me, especially for something the person may not have known about. I had approached the team manager but he, in spite of frequent rants about the evils of political correctness, didn't wish to act since he thought it was due to what he called 'culture'. Unpleasant business all around.
I loved the technology and product at that workplace but such awkward situations ensured that I moved on as quickly as I got the opportunity to do so.
I worked at a big corporation. It was against the rules to comment on body odor of a coworker because of an incident where the team got together to give someone perfume and soap and such and try to nicely tell her she smelled. Turned out she had a medical condition and it was not a hygiene issue and she was incredibly upset. HR sided with her.
Unless the person in question had a medical condition... I find this very hard to believe. There are a lot of cultures where people don't use deodorant but wash every day (and more if doing sports etc... And it's not an issue).
Well, to be honest with you, I don't really know how to tell him. Perhaps it would be easier if we came from the same culture, but we don't and I don't want to sound patronizing or anything.
>Well, to be honest with you, I don't really know how to tell him.
To both you and abawany: maybe just send a polite, anonymous email (make a one time use gmail or something)? Like a personal version of the public service whistleblower, this is the sort of situation that seems like a good fit. A simple "Hey, I see you fairly regularly and..." type of thing, that they're a nice person and you're worried they might not notice this and don't want them to be embarrassed.
I do agree that a (perceived) lack of personal hygiene can hamper people in subtle ways socially and in turn professionally, and it's possible that they could never realize why. If they're a decent enough person that's a real shame, and a quick equivalent of "Your fly is unzipped" could be a real benefit long term.
Imagine you get an email from anonymous person at your workplace. This is about as awkward for workplace culture as it gets. Knowing that there is some guy a) who thinks that you stink, and b) who is not man enough to actually talk to you and instead sends an anonymous message, and c) you have to continue to work with that person, d) but you don't know who it is. Any of your coworkers could be that socially challenged person afraid to talk openly and taking such a ridiculous route.
Either you find the guts to and talk about it openly or you let it slide. I'd much prefer you take the first route. I consider this part of being an adult. It's only awkward if you make it so in the first place.
Wow, you are seriously crazy. May I point out that your perception first of all is the result of your own brain? It is you yourself who has those ideas in their head - i did not write any of it, you found it in yourself.
As for part two of your fantastic rant, I refer back to what I wrote. You merely restate what was already said and what I responded to. Repetition does not make the argument any better.
Please don't make HN worse by responding to a bad comment with a worse one, and please don't break the site guidelines by crossing into incivility like this—let alone personal attack, which we ban users for.
If you'd read the following, and take the spirit of this site to heart when commenting here, we'd appreciate it:
I will always call idiots idiots. I don't care about this site's policies in any case, since the random downvoting (and I really mean the RANDOM downvoting, not the few times when it's obviously bad comments) is far, FAR too prevalent - AND on top of that, when some time ago with another account I upvoted a few such comments that were donwvoted for no valid reason at all you called me a "troll" for "upvoting controversial comments". That is when I lost all respect for you and your site. That's what learning that the admin is a dumb piece of shit (dumb because... that was just DUMB) does.
Personally, I find the fragrances of personal care products far more offensive than the smell of a recently showered person without fragrances. It’s not my preference about the odor, it’s my reaction to the dozens of secret synthetic chemicals that they create the fragrance with. Essential oils are better, but still offensive and cause me various unpleasant symptoms and feelings.
i agree totally, perfumes are almost exclusively suffocating. i feel like there's this arms race going on, where you get used to one level if fragrance and then a more potent one lures in people, and now the cover ups are getting pretty close to at least as bad as the stinks they're trying to cover up.
The problem is that all of the stuff that used to make perfumes persistent are all gone.
I received a really nice French cologne as a birthday gift back in the 80's--women loved it. It was low grade enough that only people very next to you would notice, and it would last days ... even after showers. This made for some interesting interactions with women at the office ... "Oh, looks like someone had a good weekend ..."
At some point, they had to change out the binder/fixer/whatever (presumably it's either horribly toxic or horribly cruel to skunks), and colognes haven't been the same since.
Now, in order to get a cologne to last even a couple of hours, they create things that are horrifically strong at start, and you still almost can't smell them several hours later.
(I actually had the misfortune to test this. My mother used Chanel No 5 Eau de Cologne that I would buy for her as a gift when she ran out or it went bad. The last one I bought smelled wrong as soon as I opened it--they reformulated it and discontinued it soon after. I wound up kicked through Chanel customer service to get some of the last "real" stock they had--they knew that the updated one was wrong and had kept a small amount for customer complaints (and presumably very rich patrons).)
AFAIK this is also in part because there is a difference between "perfume", "cologne", "eau de cologne", "eau de perfume"--some of these are probably the same, I forget the exact details. Someone once explained me there's three different types of smell-good liquids, and they mainly differ in how long they last. Often you have the same fragrance at various prices.
What I don’t understand is how people wear half a dozen unrelated fragrances at once. Laundry detergent, dryer sheets, cologne, deodorant, shampoo, and sometimes people still add “air freshener” on top of that.
It's possible to get unscented versions of most personal hygiene products- and generally you shouldn't be using so much shampoo that you smell it for hours after using it.
Most shampoo fragrance fades fairly fast, compared to scents meant to last all day like deodorant. But I think you are underestimating the strength of the fragrances in shampoo.
I do know of the fragrance-free options, of course, but I’ve suffered comfort issues from being near other people’s fragrances for over a decade. I have to try to find fragrance-free and natural versions of everything for my girlfriend.
It isn’t a problem for my own use, as I use very few personal care products, but it would be great if the general public understood the things you say.
Drugstore brands such as Axe, Old Spice and Irish Spring are absolutely terrible. I'm currently using Dr Bronner's castile soap (eucalyptus) and while the smell is strong, it's not offensive. I also like Ivory (bar soap) and Every Man Jack.
Desert Essence tea tree vegetable soap bar is also really excellent. It has only a mild smell going on, and leaves no scent behind. Also a killer lather and lasts a long time.
Their liquid soap.. no so good, doesn't lather well and doesn't go the distance.
So much. Had this one colleague, luckily not in the same room, but he once touched my screen (which is already a big no-go for me anwyay) and I could still smeel it days later. Maybe my sense of smell is too good, don't know, but this was rather unpleasant.
No, you continue to smell just fine for about 24 hours or until you induce yourself to sweat (exercise, sauna, wearing too many clothes for conditions). The bacteria and their food have literally been washed off of your skin and it takes them some time to regrow into sufficient numbers to produce odor.
What mechanism of applying body soap do you think persists after showering? Either way, the bacteria are mostly gone and more importantly their food is mostly gone. Of course, they immediately start trying to grow back, whether you used soap or not.
(I don't see any reason the tooth-brushing metaphor is warranted, since it seems to introduce more differences than similarities.)
Water alone doesn’t do a very good job of removing bacteria, or sweat, or dirt. Which is why we use soap in the first place. Your skin has oils on it that trap all of these things. Soap allows you to get much more off than water alone. This is also why soaps can result in dry skin.
If water alone did a good job of removing bacteria, then surgeons wouldn’t scrub with soap for 15 minutes.
> Water alone doesn’t do a very good job of removing sweat
Citation needed? Sweat is mostly water and trace amount of salt. It dissolves easily in water.
> Water alone doesn’t do a very good job of removing bacteria or dirt
We agree here! (With some qualified reservations about what the subjective "very good" means, and how necessary it is for body washing applications.)
Water does a reasonable job of removing bacteria -- handwashing studies show this. It's a lot better than nothing. Yes, water combined with soap does a better job.
> If water alone did a good job of removing bacteria, then surgeons wouldn’t scrub with soap for 15 minutes.
The topic under discussion is body soaps, not handwashing.
I would always suggest washing your hands with soap! You use your hands to prepare food and touch mucus membranes. The same is not true of, say, your armpits.
(Going off into the weeds here, but: surgeons do not scrub for 15 minutes. That would destroy their skin and increase risk of transferring disease. Timed scrubs are 3-5 minutes. And they certainly do not perform surgery with their armpits.)
> Water does a reasonable job of removing bacteria -- handwashing studies show this.
If I'm not mistaken, the materials I've seen indicate it's the scrubbing for a certain period of time (20 seconds?) that removes the most bacteria in handwashing. Just putting your hands under running water alone doesn't do much, if anything.
Agreed — scrubbing is important. My comment about "water alone" was in contrast to "water plus body soap." I did not mean to suggest you should not scrub.
Standing in a shower for 10 minutes doesn’t mean your armpits are getting cleaned well (or anything else for that matter). I bet most people scrub their armpits for a couple of seconds each. And except for people who shave, armpits are full of hair that interferes with getting them cleaned easily.
The set of people who vigorously scrub their clean-shaven armpits under water for 20-30 seconds each is probably pretty small.
> Just like how brushing your teeth makes your breath smell alright for 30 minutes.
Provided your mouth isn't dry (e.g., when you're asleep), brushing your tongue should help a lot. Getting rid of the white furry stuff very much helps keep things fresh - at least until you start drinking coffee/sugar and eating foods again (apples might be alright though).
While you didn't mention tongue brushing - I won't presume whether you do or don't do that already so I'm replying as such for others' benefit - I believe not everyone realises[1] how much of an improvement tongue brushing makes. Those with a strong gag reflex[2] might also be reluctant to brush - it's not something my parents ever taught me to do and one of them still has it as strong as I used to only around 10-15 years ago - I had to learn it myself from online reading and gradual practice.
[2] My own tips for dialing down the reflex is to not have a full stomach (so not immediately after breakfast or dinner[3]), breathe in deeply beforehand, brush from back of the tongue to the front, and grimace/retract the tongue before a gag kicks in (but also not worry if there is still a gag; just take another chance to rinse/breathe). The other benefit to being able to be relaxed about this is that dentist visits become a lot more relaxing (i.e., I've almost drifted off before while occupying/placing my mind in other places and thinking about - meditation, self hypnosis perhaps?).
[3] One other common dental hygiene recommendation is to brush three times a day, but I've never really been able to do that consistently and know of very few people who do. I would suggest a compromise solution of brushing morning, and then before dinner to clear the bacteria, and then of course again before bed. The idea isn't to have no bacteria in the mouth (that's impossible) but to just cut it back frequently enough to make a difference.
(Background: I'm not a dentist but I've had enough experience visiting them to have permanently made improvements towards my dental health, which I'd guess was below-average in the past. These days I practically look forward to seeing my dentist - so long as it's just the yearly checkup.)
> Water washes off odor but not the bacteria that make that odor.
That is simply inaccurate.
"Bacteria of potential faecal origin (mostly Enterococcus and Enterobacter spp.) were found after no handwashing in 44% of samples. Handwashing with water alone reduced the presence of bacteria to 23% (p < 0.001)."
I know it sounds strange, but if you can make it through the first month or two of not using body soap or shampoo regularly you'll be better off in all ways.
I generally don't use shampoo, hair product, etc. But I really hate seeing comments like this on HN because it is anecdotal and the assumption that it generalizes is unwarranted.
I have a genetic disorder. It has taken me years to get to the point where skipping soap and shampoo in the shower most of the time makes sense. I use lots of hand soap, hand sanitizer and even spray peroxide for germ control.
Physiology, air quality, water quality and other factors significantly impact the particulars here. So, great if you can make it work for you. Wonderful if you want to share tips. Honest. But you only alienate people when you make such claims because inevitably someone reading this will chime in to say they have done absolutely everything you talk about and could not make it work for them.
I no longer use soap for most of my body when I shower, I no longer use it when washing my face at night, and I no longer use shampoo. And things are fine.
I once tried not using deodorant in one of my armpits. After about a week things were fine, but it got bad when I wore a tuxedo and went to a fancy dinner. I think the stress of the dinner made me sweat, and the tuxedo trapped the heat and sweat, so the bacteria went to town.
Other than that sort of scenario I imagine I could get by without deodorant. My girlfriend never uses any and only rarely smells bad.
It's possible that you have to wait for the bacterial population to balance out, and then the odors diminish. After you stop using deodorant, you'll get colonized by certain species that are most aggressive. But I'm guessing that over time you'll get a better mix, and better smells.
wrt not using deodorant, personally I use unperfumed aluminum-free deodorant. TBH, it's not as good as regular deodorant; I wash my armpits and apply fresh deodorant daily, whereas with regular deodorant I can go for ~2 days before my armpits starts to smell (when not doing anything particularly physical).
Do you use body soap when you've gotten very sweaty from exercise? How about when you've gotten very dirty from physical labor in a dirty environment? If so, does this temporarily "throw off" your natural oils? For how long? Would someone that exercises heavily/gets dirty often enough, never be able to achieve oil homeostasis because of this?
Related: How do you feel about the Roman-Empire cleaning method of applying (usually olive) oil to your skin and then scraping it off (with something like a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strigil)? I've been thinking for a while that it might get you clean from sweat/dirt without throwing off your skin-oil balance.
Exercise-induced sweat is composed primarily of water (98-99%) and a little bit of salt.[0] Obviously, salt water just rinses off. You don't need soap for that.
If you get physically dirty, especially greasy, then yeah, use soap.
Those are normal sweat glands. The sweat glands in your armpits and groin are apocrine sweat glands and they excrete things like fatty acids that bacteria consume and cause the nasty BO. That stuff doesn't really come off with water, you need soap.
For most mammals, however, apocrine sweat glands secrete an oily (and eventually smelly) compound that acts as a pheromone, territorial marker, and warning signal.[1]
Before you hit puberty, your apocrine sweat glands aren't really active. That's why prepubecents don't really have BO, just a mild sweat smell.
I've found soap to be largely unnecessary unless I have greasy stains on the skin, but going without shampoo didn't work. When I was flat broke in college I had to go for a month without shampoo and my hair never achieved any state beyond plastered to my head with grease. It was not a viable situation.
Perhaps if I had adopted dreadlocks it might have worked, but as a nerdy white guy in the computer lab dreads felt out of place.
I just use Dr. Bronner’s. It has a very short, natural ingredient list, a low amount of fragrance that is natural and easy to tolerate, and my hair gets plenty clean.
I’m not sure that works out to be cheaper, especially if you can get the soap in bulk (refill a bottle).
I am sensitive to the synthetic amalgam of proprietary chemicals known as ‘fragrance (parfum)’, and I have to evacuate the house or create major ventilation when anyone showers with a shampoo like Suave. I also then prefer not to go near their head for several hours.
It is odd how those shampoos work, fragrance wise. What I observe is a wave of odor that is emitted from the bathroom and slowly creeps through nearby rooms after the door is opened following showering.
Does this work if you have an active lifestyle? My commute involves quite a lot of physical exertion, and arriving stinky to work would not really be acceptable.
I bike half an hour in the summer in this hot and muggy area and as long as you remember to rinse your pits and change out of your sweaty clothes when you arrive you won't be stinky. It's something I worried about when I started biking, but it really hasn't been an issue at all.
The stinky part comes from those sopping wet clothes you changed out of and had to hang up somewhere. Hopefully not in your office.
I'm a guy with longish hair (curly and shoulder length). I run long distances (50-ish miles a week) and bike commute daily.
I also shampoo only 2 or 3 times a year. No issues for me. I just use very hot water and really rub my scalp in the shower. Started it as a 30-day experiment in 2010 when I had bad dandruff and never looked back.
My hair is a mess when I don't use shampoo and conditioner, but I haven't used body soap in years. I've asked friends and co-workers about body odour, including ones that will call me out on my shit. Not a single one of them notices it.
I don't, either - but I do notice it after I've done something athletic, or I haven't showered in 16 hours. I don't think it's because I'm desensitized. A shower and a clean change of clothes fixes that right up.
I did, and I also tried the vinegar + baking soda thing. It was annoying to deal with, didn't look good, and would often tangle into a horiffic mess.
It still does, when I fail to shampoo and conditioner on a daily basis.
Yes, I shower without soap. I guess there's some trickle-down of shampoo, but it's not a major contributor. Hot water and light scrubbing cleans me off. If I am exceptionally dirty, I will use soap, but because I don't work outdoors, that rarely happens.
I have three different skin conditions - if i take a shower and use no products (body wash, face wash, shampoo) then they flare/continue to flare. So, no - i'll be worse.
The reality is this isn't going to be for everyone. If it works for you, great. But it's not something everyone can take up and should not be portrayed as such.
I can confirm this. After reading an article years ago about skipping shampoo I tried it for a few weeks and indeed, was fine, so just stopped. Have used shampoo perhaps a half a dozen times in the past 20 years. And I work out (sweat hard) everyday. But FWIW i keep my hair quite short!
Also minimize body soap but can’t do without it. Hands get washed a lot of course but I try to avoid liquid soap (Dr Bronner's is OK) and "purell" if I can.
For the past 10-15 years I have only used Shampoo maybe once a year. Every time I ask my barber how it's looking back there, I always get the thumbs up.
The natural oil that accumulates let me style my hair without using products.
I also do not use body wash / body soap and no complaints around smell although I do use deodorant everyday.
I scrub all over, but especially my smelly bits with a cold water until they stop smelling. I vigorously rub my scalp to make sure to get off any dandruff. That's it!
For me, if I don't use deodorant for a couple of days I can really smell myself. Doesn't help to wash with or without soap either, I almost smell worse after soaping when not using deodorant.
But it does take a few days for the smell to kick in.
I had an a rash under my arms for the better part of a year that made all the hair go away, and removed all of the odor there. It was just like any other skin that was sort of clammy, like having your knee folded up.
>I know it sounds strange, but if you can make it through the first month or two of not using body soap or shampoo regularly you'll be better off in all ways.
I've heard this before but I don't understand it. If I go two days without shampoo my scalp becomes extremely itchy and flaky.
Agreed. It's more a matter of keeping your clothes clean. I use Method Sweetwater for that (little odor) plus I add bleach for underwear and towels (washed separately). No fabric softener. No dryer balls, they shorten the life of the fabric. I only wear cotton and wool.
I tried that for 2 months and it didn't change anything.
Yes hair is a little less greasy compared to when you shower every 1-2 days and then not for 4 days, but you still need to wash your hair with vinegar and baking powder (wtf) if you don't want it to look greasy.
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but all of the people irl who have tried to tell me this stank to high heaven. I don’t doubt that anyone could adjust to that, for themselves, but how about the rest of us? As to the hair, maybe it works for you, but some people have very dry hair, or very greasy hair and what you’re saying simply doesn’t fly.
Not to mention those of us in customer-facing roles, who can’t really afford to hope we’re not offensively ripe that day.
I tried exactly this when I was working from home for a while. The hair worked out wonderfully - better than any product I’ve ever used.
But the BO? It... well, my wife called it a manly musk. She gave it a doubleplus good at home, but i was not allowed to leave the house like that. Even I could smell myself.
I tried adding some probiotic body lotion into the mix, but it didn’t help at all.
You could just soap the most important areas that cause odor - armpits, groin and feet every time. Sometimes neck and behind the ears to exfoliate. Everything else plain water, unless I've been hiking etc. I do this with a plain unscented soap, takes only a minute or two to shower and no odor problem. Light soap on face maybe every other day. Skin feels much healthier this way.
I totally support this, assuming your body odor and oil type accommodates it. For me, I find hot water hair rinses with less frequent shampooing is much better. By the same token god help anyone around me if I didn’t soap my armpits that day. I see a huge difference between finding what works for you, and absolutist approaches to hygiene.
I could shower and soap everything quickly in a few minutes to, bit the GP comments were talking about taking 15 to 20 minutes to shower, which seems extremely long to me.
Nothing happens if I get soap elsewhere, I just don't intentionally soap outside those regions daily. In my experience arms, legs torso etc aren't particularly dirty on a daily basis and the skins seems more mostrurizied and healthy if I just use water on them. YMMV depending on skin type.
I'm pretty romantically active and I'm not saying I never smell, sometimes after a couple hours of exercise I do, but I can tell when I do and my romantic partner will tease me about it.
This isn't a case of me not smelling it. I just have another cold shower whenever I need one. But generally speaking most exercise is fine.
> without a good scrub with some soap in all "enclosed hairy regions" you will most certainly have quite strong body odor.
This is not true in general. Maybe there are outliers.
The mechanism by which washing kills bacteria is by simply pushing them off your body down the drain. Soap's only purpose is to remove oil, which water does not rinse off by itself.
As a general rule, try rinsing first; if it still smells bad, then use soap. I exercise daily and sweat a lot pre-shower. A rinse eliminates all body odor.
I knew someone who never used soap on their body because of a medical condition and their skin would react. Suffice to say they didn't smell like BO, but they did have a heavy sweaty smell to them like after a workout. Not pleasant.
Water alone will do nothing to body oils. They just stick. Bacteria then start to digest it and you get a smell.
Overall, water might cut down some of the smell, but without soap, you're going to smell sweaty.
I've had many a walk through the neighborhood spoiled by one household doing the laundry, and using Downy or some other fabric softener. It stinks up the whole neighborhood. Not to mention the scent overload when people wear clothes treated this way to work.
Just use white vinegar instead - it works and doesn't cause all the pollution.
Or just don't use fabric softener. I quit years ago, and my clothes last a bit longer (I also do not use a clothes dryer). Don't use products you don't need, be it hygiene or cleaning products. Buy low- or no-scent laundry soap. Avoid air fresheners, scented lotions, and whatnot.
Some folks don't need daily deodorant, and most of us don't need daily showers.
And as an aside: Vinegar is generally only used as a replacement for fabric softener. As I mentioned, it isn't a problem to go without, but furthermore can harm some of the rubber tubes and stuff in your washer.
I currently live in a cold climate, yes. But haven't always - I'm used to hot and humid summers - you know, those ones where you can't actually dry off after a shower. I also am "lucky" enough to get night sweats due to hormones occasionally, to the point of soaking the blanket on top of me.
Believe it or not, so long as you are generally clean, you are fine. Wash your face on your non-shower days, then wash the sweaty portions. Armpits, genitals, and under the breasts if you have them. Wear stuff that helps keep you from sweating. Problem solved.
> Believe it or not, so long as you are generally clean, you are fine
I've lived 40 years in fairly hot climates and I do not believe that "most of us don't need daily showers" holds true of them. How do you know that, for most people, the regimen you describe would be sufficient?
... knowing lots of sweaty folks? Living through summers of sweat and humidity? Knowing that lots of folks are fine with simply washing up on non-shower days - and that some folks simply don't live in areas with such shower access? Waking up slimy with sweat around the breast and armpit area and having a brutally honest spouse who'd tell me if I stink? Freaking medical knowledge about what causes the smell?
Seriously. Just stay clean, and that doesn't actually involve daily showers. Change clothes as necessary, especially underclothes. Use products that reduce sweating under the arms. You can wash up without showering, and if it is a hot, humid area everyone has a bit of sweat. Only a few areas tend to produce strong smells on a daily basis.
> ... knowing lots of sweaty folks? Living through summers of sweat and humidity?
How is that evidence of anything?
> Knowing that lots of folks are fine with simply washing up on non-shower days
Clearly the issue in question is whether some form of daily washing regimen is needed, not whether it is specifically coming from a shower head or not.
All you're saying there is lots of folks are fine with daily washing.
> and that some folks simply don't live in areas with such shower access?
That's irrelevant to the issue we're discussing.
> Waking up slimy with sweat around the breast and armpit area and having a brutally honest spouse who'd tell me if I stink?
I was asking about how you'd know beyond personal anecdote
> Freaking medical knowledge about what causes the smell?
Seriously. Just stay clean, and that doesn't actually involve daily showers.
Again, were taking about daily cleaning not specifically whether there's water from a shower head.
How are you supposed to stay clean? What if you get dirty? What do you do then?
> Change clothes as necessary, especially underclothes. Use products that reduce sweating under the arms. You can wash up without showering,
Again, the issue is about washing not specifically how the water is delivered.
> and if it is a hot, humid area everyone has a bit of sweat.
That's irrelevant to what we're discussing.
> Only a few areas tend to produce strong smells on a daily basis.
That's also irrelevant... does that somehow indicate that washing isn't required?
On the other hand, as someone for whom the smell of vinegar or anything vaguely sour/acidic causes much discomfort (sometimes, almost to the point of wanting to vomit), I'd choose the fabric softener smell. Of course the best is no smell at all, but I'd bet there's a good reason that those products smell the way they do, and not like something else.
x2 vinegar. It works for all sorts of household cleaning.
I use it on floors with a touch of Dawn, shower cleaner in a 1:1 ratio boiling hot vinegar to Dawn with baking soda as a kicker, glass cleaner, 1:1 cold water and vinegar on dog pee marks and carpet spots, etc.
About the only thing vinegar is not recommended on is wood products.
Baking-soda and vinegar lays waste to bathtub stains in a way that can only be described as brutal! 10-min soak and scrubbing with those tiny crystals makes it brand-new.
Tell me about it! My boyfriend had a nasty shower situation going on. He would try to clean it, even going so far as using Ajax / Comet type stuff, nothing would touch it.
After researching and stumbling across vingegar:Dawn and baking soda idea, I tried it on his tub. Honest to god, the grime came off like a banana being peeled. At this point, I stopped using commercially available house cleaners. They don't work as well, and are chemically more hazardous. One year later, I still have a cleaning boner from that cleaning session.
Apparently there is something called cleaning vinegar that has 10% acetic acid. Food grade vinegar is only 5%. I only can dream of the grime removal the 10% strength vinegar can accomplish.
My girlfriend and I purchase the 10% vinegar. It’s available in large jugs, too. Can confirm. It, baking soda, and sometimes a little table salt if you need abrasion, works wonders.
I don’t get the mixing of baking soda and vinegar: won’t that neutralize the solution (actually I read that the soda will buffer it slightly alkaline.) so what’s the purpose of mixing the two?
I don't understand the underlying chemical reaction, but the vinegar:Dawn mixture alone did not get the boyfriend's tub clean. I had let the mixture sit in the tub for like an hour too periodically doing test scrubs. It wasn't that it wasn't working, it was that scrubbing wasn't clearly only doing a half job.
Once I added the baking soda, like I said in a different post, the grime came off like a banana peel with much less effort on my part.
I really like the results of bathroom cleaning with vinegar but I end up with a very raw-feeling throat and sore eyes afterwards. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong.
Oh, no. Just vinegar and water. It does wonders for soap scum in grout. My guess is that I'm getting the inflamed mucous membranes from the low PH vapor coming off the vinegar...
Baking soda is great for cleaning pants too. Just boil some water with baking soda in it and everything stuck to the pan is taken off. In extreme cases you can add some peroxide.
Another mixture (that I admit I don't understand) is baking soda with hydrogen peroxide. It obliterated a close range direct hit skunk spray on my jeans and sneakers with a 20 minute soak.
marble is basically carbonate. It is vulnerable to any acid treatment. White vinegar without dillusion usually has a ph level around 2, that’s quite acidic
I don't use anything but basic detergent and I've never felt the need for softener. It's just another pointless product nobody would want if it weren't advertised to them.
I'm not the person you were replying to, but we had a neighbour who used strongly scented laundry products and we could often smell it half way down the street and sometimes in our own home.
People who use dryer sheets and fabric softener are the worst. You can smell a block over, and even from such distance its enough to give me difficulty breathing.
Fun fact: east asians (Chinese, Korean, Japanese and Mongols) seldom use deodorants, because of a mutation of the gene ABCC11 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABCC11) resulting in dramatic reduction of the sweat glands responsible for the strong body odor.
Interestingly, the Wikipedia article mentions that (a different?) variation of the gene influences the amount of volatile organic compounds in ear wax. Quite the coincidence!
In their native habitat or at a standardized temperature?
I'm Scandinavian, and I'm comfy and dry when I can wake up seeing my own breath. After moving to California, though, I'm pretty sure I'm single handedly ending the drought.
Excessive sweating is probably a disease rather than race-related. In Chinese traditional medicine it is called 虚汗, so it definitely can affect at least one more race than Irish.
There's a funny thing going on here which cuts both ways, you get used to your own smells. This means that if you don't use deodorant (or don't shower regularly!) by the time your own BO smell is noticeable you are, in fact, quite ripe and other people around you have been noticing a lot. And on the other hand, if you use scented deodorants, soap/body wash, detergent, dryer sheets, or perfume the level where you can smell them distinctly is where they are basically overpowering for someone who hasn't been steeping in them for days/weeks. Which is why such scented things tend to have such overpowering smells, they're calibrated to a level of smell for someone who is already used to that smell.
Unfortunately, the middle ground isn't well represented in the market. I long ago made the switch to more lightly scented and unscented hygiene products and sometimes it takes a lot more work than it should. Fortunately there are clothes detergents and dryer sheets that are unscented that you can buy in many stores, however for body wash and deodorant I basically always have to buy online (I ended up just using an "unscented body wash base" and a fragrance free hypoallergenic anti-perspirant). It's very frustrating to have such a simple need (fragrance free common products) be so difficult to fulfill. Maybe things will change, I remember when it was hard to find soy milk in most grocery stores and that's changed dramatically.
I don't get it. Soap doesn't seem very volatile. The article leads with deodorant and soap but the rest is about paint and lacquer, which seem way more volatile than soap.
How does my soap get into the air? Is it volatile and I just don't know?
The study[0] in ScienceMag this article revolves around seems to focus on on Volatile Chemical Products (VCP's) derived from petrochemicals.
From the abstract:
>We show that human exposure to carbonaceous aerosols of fossil origin is transitioning away from transportation-related sources and toward VCP's.
and from the study itself:
>Most organic compounds in soaps and detergents dissolve in water and end up in sewer systems (20), with negligible amounts emitted from wastewater treatment plants (21).
And my takeaway is:
e.g. organic compounds in the soaps used for dish-washing and showering don't VOC-off, but instead are carried away by the drain and are almost entirely captured in wastewater treatment.
So, when this article mentions soaps, I'd hazard to restrict that to spray soaps derived from petrochemicals.
In the study's supplemental materials there's a table that breaks out personal care into Hair Care, Perfumes, Lotions, Shaving & Mouthwashes, and Other Cosmetics.
The scents they use in air fresheners, candles, whatever, are just plain 100% pure evil. I've had more migraines and asthma attacks in the months they put in new air fresheners at work than the entire decade before. There should be laws against it.
Public healthcare incentivizes the government to protect people's health; the American system incentivizes politicians to protect the profit margins of the insurance industry.
I'm not sure if you have the law in Sweden, but here in Norway we got a "Smoking law" that prohibits smoking in public places to promote people's health and reduce the cost of running the government hospitals.
To be fair, the smoking laws here in Norway are a little more relaxed than they were when i was living in the US. Want to smoke in the hospital parking lot? You'll get escorted off. Same for areas outside some airports, but I can smoke outside the airport here in Trondheim before I get on the bus. No real problem smoking on the sidewalks downtown. Some ask you to go away from the doors, but that isn't a real issue and I find it reasonable. Companies aren't firing people for smoking, and I don't find they tell folks they simply cannot smoke during the work day (including lunch).
You can smoke in dedicated smoking areas outside, but it's actually not allowed to smoke on bus-/train stops/sidewalks etc. There are just no one to enforce it.
I guess the places where you get escorted from in the US are privately owned and not due to a law (but I could be wrong).
The companies firing you for smoking might also have to do with a bit stronger labor laws in Norway :)
This is one case where the libertarian argument that governments are fundamentally coercive works against you. Insurance companies can't take such broad actions to protect health as government can -- things like taxes on products with negative health externalities, regulations ensuring workplace safety, etc.
The argument here was about incentives -- i.e. the practical component of how our laws get updated, not about the theoretical component. Your original argument was that private companies are incentivized to pursue safety, and my counterargument is that incentivized private companies do not nearly as much power to effectively pursue safety as incentivized governments do.
There's a crop of startups now that are incentivizing healthier lifestyles by gamifying healthy activities, routine doctor visits, etc. Insurance companies pay them per head to make their software available to customers, and reward customers with the most health points with lower premiums and such.
Insurance companies, by and large, make their money on the delta between the prices they charge and the costs to deliver service. If they can delivery service to a predominately healthier population, then they can deliver service for lower costs, meaning they can lower costs to be more competitive, while being able to make more profits and deliver better outcomes.
The notion that they want to drive up healthcare costs is kind of ridiculous. If that were true, they'd be rushing to sign up patients with terminal illnesses and costly pre-existing conditions, but the fact of the matter is that the government had to literally force them to for that to happen.
Taking care people and difficult medical conditions will likely never be dirt cheap, right? Unless you're envisioning Dark Mirror style robot care and cure everything pills.
In Australia, we have a public-private model for hospitals and health services. However, I think there's starting to be a greater awareness that private health insurance for many holds increasingly poor value, compared to what is available publicly under government funding as well as simply saving up what would be paid to private health insurance companies and instead directly pay health providers from one's own bank account. To date, everything I've learned about private health is that it's to maximise profit while being able to provide a semblence of good value healthcare.
Here are a some links I've collected on the topic - obviously, I'm a little biased but I have yet to see any compelling case for privatised healthcare on essential services:
I'm fine with one candle or wax melt, in fact I love them. But walking into a soap store or soap aisle (or laundry detergent aisle for that matter) will leave me gasping for air, eyes watering, itching in sensitive areas, and with an oncoming migraine in mere minutes. And when some people hear "migraine" they think "bad headache", but a migraine is complete debilitation of your brain's functions. You can't think, can hardly walk, let alone drive home from the grocery store.
I do wish people would think more about the scents they use, and for the love of god stop putting the unscented laundry soap in the middle of all the scented ones!
According to "Multiple chemical sensitivities: A systematic review of provocation studies" (Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology 2006)[1], perfume sensitivity is largely psycho-somatic. This means that we experience symptoms because we stress about the perfume exposure. Since learning this, I have employed stress-management techniques during perfume exposure and have enjoyed 90% reduction in symptoms.
What I've noticed anecdotally (feel free to critique this) is that of the few people I know who appear to fit that profile of having MCS, it's of my opinion that they would all benefit from stress-management techniques (including outdoor cardio exercise to help with breathing). I would suggest it to them if it weren't for the fact they're merely acquaintenances and not friends.
Of course, I don't mean to suggest that obnoxious use of perfumes should be encouraged, but for those who are extremely sensitive, it's perhaps worth a look given how rarely doctors seem to seriously prescribe exercise (I think part of the reason is that taking up a new form of exercise is intimidating and difficult to monitor for many people, and that not all doctors live the healthiest of lifestyles themselves).
I've been using a stainless steel "deoderant stick" [1] (it's just metal, no chemicals) for several years in the shower and its greatly reduced the amount of normal deodorant I use. The steel does a good job of eliminating odors. I only supplement with a dry-stick deodorant if I know I'm going to be getting hot and sweaty - most days at the office I skip it. Saves a lot of money too, since one of these will last you a whole lifetime most likely.
Wife would say so - and I can smell myself. I think the trick is you need to rub it for about 30 seconds - longer than people are probably willing to do it. But there's noticeable before and after results if you do that.
tl;dr: stainless steel reacts with the stuff that makes onions, garlic and fish smell, thereby neutralising that particular odor.
So scrubbing yourself with stainless steel can replace soap but not deodorant. Unless you're literally rubbing steel particles onto your skin there's no lasting effect, it just kills the smells (if they are sulfur-based).
EDIT: of course this assumes you trust the article to be scientifically accurate.
> A deodorant is a substance applied to the body to prevent body odor caused by the bacterial breakdown of perspiration in armpits, feet, and other areas of the body. A subgroup of deodorants, antiperspirants, affect odor as well as prevent sweating by affecting sweat glands.
People don't wait until they stink to put deodorant on, they put it on in the morning after a shower when they don't smell to prevent odors later on. Even if "prevent" means "covering them up with fragrance"
I thought I was being helpful with my comment. That was certainly my intention.
It was a correction to a misunderstanding. As neither of the two authors I referenced replied, I assumed that either they didn't see it, or accepted the correction, or dismissed it and moved on.
The arguments weren't about the large issues of the day, but the arguments were wrong based on a misunderstanding, and surely the world is improved when you have an understanding of things, great or small, rather than misunderstanding.
--------------
With regards to your statement, you don't prevent odor by adding odor. You attempt to change the quality of the odor you emit by mixing in other odors with purported desirable qualities. You create an admixture of "good" and "bad" in a stronger odor.
This is not prevention.
If you have asthma or other respiratory condition, a strong odor can trigger that pathology, regardless of the qualities of that odor that would cause you to think it smelled good or bad. The strength of the odor alone is the trigger.
In that case you would much prefer the people around you used an anti-perspirant with as little extra odor added in as reasonable.
Or maybe you don't have any respiratory pathologies, but you find strong odor distracting. You might actually prefer low levels of body odor to strong levels of some deodorant.
How is this supposed to work? I'm assuming not many chemical reactions are happening around that stainless steel. So is this any different than using a sponge, your hand or whatever solid object?
Maybe nobody has spent money to do a study, but it does seem to work. I was skeptical when a friend suggested it, but I'll be darned if it doesn't work.
So it's like Niel Bohr's horseshoe that he hung above his office door. When asked if he thought it brought good luck, he would reply "No. But they say it works even if you don't believe in it."
Perhaps I could kill two birds at once by selling stainless steel horseshoes for bathing use? "Uncle Bohr's Lucky Stainless Steel Bathing Horseshoe" or such?
Luck is hard to measure, smells aren't. I don't understand why you're so hostile to the possibility that stainless steel can remove odors that soap doesn't? This is easy to test. I've tested it.
So you did a controlled test where you used just water one day, a sponge/washcloth another day, and a stone another day and had blinded judges to smell you throughout the day?
definitely works for getting rid of onion or garlic smells off your hands. you can use a spoon or knife or even the sink surface. i believe that the steel acts as a catalytic surface, but have no hard evidence. but try rubbing a spoon over your fingers under running water next time youve cut garlic and see for yourself.
You're getting a lot of flak for this from people suggesting it's not proven.
Just to add to the anecdata, I've known for some time that if I rub my fingertips on a stainless steel spoon after cutting garlic it greatly reduces the smell. This doesn't seem to work with a wooden or plastic spoon.
That's a good point. Though I do think that in a lot of circumstances regular removal of odour is sufficient.
I recently spent a few months in the countryside with very little social contact (a great way to get a lot of deep work done). I would only shower every three or four days and didn't use deodorant. On the first day I smelled fine. By day three or four the accumulation of odour was noticeable. Since returning to civilisation, I've mostly stuck to a shower each day without using deodorant other than when I think it'll be necessary (like if I go out dancing).
+1 to this anecdata. Lack of use of soap and deodorant along with regular showering is fine, and less consumery. I still use deodorant when I’m planning to be in a potentially hot, stuffy place with other people (e.g. car trips), and just take a shower after exercise.
I’d even go further to say I’m convinced that use of soaps and deodorant cause us to generate odor in an even worse way. This would make sense if you want to keep selling a product. We should research this!
And regarding the stainless steel stick, I just stroke my pit hairs with my fingers.
I didn't claim it prevents odor. Which deodorant doesn't do either - you're either masking it with other scents or using an antiperspirant to reduce sweating. It removes odor that soap alone doesn't, which means you don't need to mask your pit smells with perfume or clog your pores with chemicals when used daily. It keeps things in check.
I have no idea why there is so much misunderstanding on this thread. Deodorant is NOT just fragrance, it is primarily an antibacterial. It is literally preventing odor. I do not understand why this is so difficult to believe.
I was going to ask which kind (dryer or washer, or plastic or wool) because my household uses those wool balls in the dryer, but now that I actually read about it they don't seem to do shit either...
So if I want to keep using deodorant and soap, is there an environmentally-friendly class of products I should steer towards? (I tend to use bar soap and stick deodorant.)
Does this also apply to unscented versions of these products?
I strongly dislike scented products and try to purchase as few as possible. But it is usually impossible to find unscented soap/shampoo/deodorant in many stores. I've never understood why... Do consumers really so strongly prefer hand soap with arbitrary smells added to it?
> Do consumers really so strongly prefer hand soap with arbitrary smells added to it?
I think most just don't care and don't really sense it. I don't care when I'm in public restrooms so long as there's liquid handsoap (or even bar soap if nothing else).
But at home I mostly use sorbolene not because it's unscented (I think?), but because it doesn't have my skin dry and crack in winter. Otherwise in summer, I'm happy to just use the cheapest handsoap and bar soap for shower. Speaking of which, I don't like body wash (it's too cumbersome to use) and think it's only been popularised recently through marketing.
All that said, when I'm in a kitchen, I'm more than happy to just use the dishwashing detergent... One time a coworker was astounded I washed my hands with the detergent in the break room; quite amusing. I feel it cuts through grease really well, and saves me having to have an extra handsoap dispenser by the sink. But yeah, the rest of the time it's sorbolene for me if the weather's dry.
I think many people just don't know anything else than the typical supermarket variety. I was talking soap lately and when I said I loved how the soap left no smell behind they replied that they preferred to be left smelling 'clean', ie smelling like typical supermarket bar soap. Many people I've met associate that awful smell with cleanliness.
Sweat itself doesn't have much of a stink. But if you let it ferment, it is unbearable. As long as you take a bath daily, change to a fresh pair of clothes daily and are not sweating all the time, BO is never really a problem.
Priceonomics (which I believe is a YC company?) recently did a write-up on VOCs in common household products and the resulting effect on air quality in your home. The results definitely surprised me and I switched a few of my cleaning supplies: https://priceonomics.com/which-cleaning-products-pollute-you...
There's a recurring thing where I run into a person with a very "spicy" potpourri type odor. Happens in elevators and other confined spaces, and the odor is really pungent. Seems to span cultures... sometimes an old white lady, other times a young Indian male, other times just random people. WTF is this smell? Somewhat like cloves, but worse and more nauseating.
They cover it in the article. This is not about global warming; it’s about smog. Which leads to lung cancer etc. The relation of dying from lung cancer to dying from drowning by rising sea levels is merely incidental.
Perfumes and vapor from most petrol based solvents really get to me. It took me until I was around 30 years old to really get a handle on that but doing so made a huge difference in my quality of life.
Wasn't easy on my wife and kids though. They all thought I was a major grump because I became so adamant about not using hairsprays, perfumes, nail polish and polish remover, in our house but that stuff makes me feel like crap and gives me pounding headaches. Makes me feel like a bug sprayed with "Raid" (which is another thing I banned in our house).
As a teen, I started thinking I must have some kind of psychosomatic issues because I'd get to feeling like crap at school, work, church, family get togethers, and dates with girls, etc.
That was reinforced when I noticed that when I did feel like crap if I went outdoors and spent a day a walking in a park, which I really loved to do, I would feel great afterwards. That almost convinced me I was making myself sick when I "had to do" something I didn't really want to do, but I could never nail that theory down because it wasn't consistent enough.
Finally, someone mentioned I might be "chemically sensitive". I had vaguely heard of that but never considered I might be. They inspired me to start paying closer attention to things like perfumes, and anything scented like candles, detergents, soaps, shampoos, and paints and solvents. When I did I soon realized I was being bombarded with them. They were everywhere. At home, at work, at Shopping Malls and stores, and anywhere people were gathered, and those were all connected to me feeling like crap.
So I started avoiding them and getting rid of them in my life but it wasn't easy. I had to be vigilant about it. My wife and kids would sneak stuff in and while I couldn't always smell it, I would get to feeling like crap and then go on a mission to find the source, and I always found it and got rid of it and started feeling better right away.
I've been doing that now for almost 30 years and have felt great (normal) since. And over those years I've realized I can tolerate short durations of exposure better now. I suspect because I don't have much in my system to begin with, and I generally avoid places (and people) that are using perfumes and scents. I've even been able to pinpoint some scents that really smack me down. Something in that "Axe Body Scent" is one of them I get away from as fast as I can. Whatever it is, it is used in a lot of products and I can detect it like a hound dog now.
What's really interesting to me is now that my kids are adults none of them use that stuff anymore because they found it craps them out too. Same with my wife. She can't be exposed to perfumes for very long now without realizing they crap her out too.
I do wonder if others have experienced this. It's not something I hear about much.
I'm astounded how good your sense of smell is. I feel like I used to have a good sense but now it's very dull and I have try really hard to notice things.
I think that not being constantly exposed to things that "smell" has made it a lot easier to detect scents.
My daughters were always stunned and amazed at how fast I would know they'd snuck in and cracked open a bottle of "Nail Polish Remover" (acetone) or perfumes.
Didn't stop them from trying though. They tested me a zillion times with that stuff :D
I started buying them pure essential oils (and carrier oil) so they could make their own perfumes because those don't crap me out. They loved those, so that made life a lot easier for me.
I think those saying "but you're gonna stink if you don't use soap/deodorant!" in these threads should keep in mind that BO offensiveness is definitely something that varies from person to person based on genetic factors. So it's quite possible that some of these people saying they don't use deodorants or soaps do not offend those around them, and I'm willing to take them at their word.
Me, I can be one of the stinky ones, so I will continue to foul up the earth with my soap bar and deodorant stick for your sake as well as my own.
Out of all the natural, aluminum-free options I've tried, I like Truly's All-natural deodorant(1): it smells nice (light coconut smell), lasts all day, and noticeably reduces perspiration.
I've been using it for more than two years and have no complaints, other than that applying it is slower than the stick-based deodorants.
I've lived in Europe and Africa, traveled quite a lot in Asia and America, and what people consider offensive is very contextual, including odors.
I noticed there is some link between how the society handle sexuality and the way we perceive odors. In south America and Africa, quite a lot of countries have a very natural approach to sex, and the body in general, and hence the odor of a healthy non-hobbo human is not perceived as such a problem, even after a day of work under the sun.
In the US, despite having a culture very sex oriented, the population itself is not at all liberated. You are a very sexually frustrated society. And body odor is a problem.
> In south America and Africa, quite a lot of countries have a very natural approach to sex, and the body in general, and hence the odor of a healthy non-hobbo human is not perceived as such a problem, even after a day of work under the sun.
I’ve heard the opposite, that South Americans often complain about smelly European tourists who don’t shower frequently enough.
I’m also not sure I’d choose to use Africa as an example of healthy sexuality, what with the aids epidemic and FGM.
Yes, while I think the link between cultural sexuality and BO acceptance is tenuous and probably unmeasurable, the greater point that the level at which BO becomes unacceptable is culturally subjective is well worth making.
Also, I can't believe that I am actually participating in a conversation about this. Definitely wasn't on my list of things to get done today. Funny the directions in which life takes us.
People from different cultures smell different due to genetic, hygeine, and diet differences.
Those differences smell "bad", because people acclimated and lose sensitivity to familiar smells.
> I’ve heard the opposite, that South Americans often complain about smelly European tourists who don’t shower frequently enough.
That's completely different. Odors from different ethnies can be easily disturbing. We don't smell the same and we are not used to it.
> I’m also not sure I’d choose to use Africa as an example of healthy sexuality, what with the aids epidemic and FGM.
Actually they have aids epidemic BECAUSE sex is so natural there. There is nothing natural with stopping a sensual escalation and putting a rubber on your penis. Education helped us to do this, and saved us from dying in mass and having unwanted pregnancy, but it has a serious price on the way we handle sex.
I don't know that I would say contraceptives are the source of unhealthy attitudes towards sex in the US. Prudishness stemming from Western religious influences and the like seems more responsible.
This is the exact opposite of my experience. Brazil and Argentina were eye opening for how lax we are in Europe with B.O. . Most people I met showered a hundred times a day , and always managed to smell fresh, in spite of the luck of their climatic draw. I credit that period with my olfactory awakening.
> So it's quite possible that some of these people saying they don't use deodorants or soaps do not offend those around them, and I'm willing to take them at their word.
People are really bad at detecting their own odors, though. You're marinating in it all day, so you're used to it. As a general rule of thumb, by the time you notice that you've gotten a bit whiffy, people near you have been noticing for a while.
You can wear odorless deodorants or very low oder deodorants. Specifically you want deperspirants as those eliminate the possibility of producing smell.
I've never found the BO of someone the same gender as me not repulsive. They universally stink. To the point that I know who does not at work and avoid ever walking behind them. Not wearing deperspirant (not just deodorant!) is poor hygiene as it promotes bacterial growth. I will never agree with someone who thinks they don't need to wear it.
Lemon juice works as well as deodorants. A couple of drops under the arms, and it works all day. The bacteria that cause the odor doesn't grow in the acidic environment.
Lemon juice is not an antiperspirant, though. Just a deodorant.
A bottle of concentrated lemon juice will last a very long time.
I've been using one of those salt deodorants for awhile (just a block of salt that you wet and apply). Seems to work great though I've been fortunate to have never really had to deal with bad body odor so it's hard to say if I'm just imagining its effectiveness.
There are many that likely work. The use of lemon juice has been around a long time, at least since the 1800s. It's just been forgotten about, as nobody makes any money selling lemon juice as a deodorant.
It's not toxic, and simple to test on yourself, and you've probably already got a bottle of lemon juice in the refrigerator.
> It's not toxic, and simple to test on yourself, and you've probably already got a bottle of lemon juice in the refrigerator.
Lemon juice contains a vast array of different chemicals, some of which may be phototoxic. It also releases VOCs (e.g. terpenes). I don't know how much compared to your average deodorant, though.
I would think the sugar in lemon juice might be a little sticky (presumably the bacteria in that environment aren't used to having fructose)? Likely to decrease the pH you could use vinegar, among other things.
